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Who is better,
Saesee Tiin, Jedi Master
cost 46
HP 130
DEF 20
ATK 14
DMG 20
SA: Unique, Melee Attack
Double Attack, Djem so style mastery,
armored spacesuit
Mettle
Force Powers:
Force 3
Surprise move
Lightsaber Block
Shak Ti, Jedi Master
47 points
HP 130
DEF 20
ATK 13
DMG 20
SA: Unique, Melee Attack, Stealth,
Cunning Attack, Crowd Fighting, Double Attack, Affinity Rebels
Force Powers
Force 2, Force Renewal 1
lightsaber riposte, lightsaber block, and MOTF 2
at first glance shak ti looks better in everyway, but in actuallity Saesee Tiin is more capable at fighting melee battles than shak ti is, this is because Saesee can respond to more attacks than shak can and at greater damage, but at ranged defenses shak is better with stealth, Saesee though has a force power that makes up for his lack of ranged defenses and that is surprise move which if timed correctly can win a game for you.
my choice goes to Saesee Tiin after playtesting him thoroughly he is better at dealing with melee threats than shak is, and for the way i play he works better
who is your choice and explain why
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i have to say Saesee Tiin, Jedi Master. MHY main resoning is he still has block, but he doesnt have to spend a force point to djem so as shaak ti does to rpioste, now he still has a 50/50 chance of it happening, but he will do 30 damage with amster and there is npot way for shaak ti to do 30 damage to an attacking enemy. plus he has armored spacesuit for that extra chance of a crit happeneing.
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plus he has mettle if you really need the style to kick in
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Shaak-ti More Damage output and stealth keeps her from dying to range. Also renewal and reposte gives her some staying power in a fight. And she has a 24d vs other attacking jedi. You cant just look at vs melee Shaak can deal with range a lot better then saesee and no need for a save to hit back is why id pick her.
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Yeah, you are missing one of the huge abilities that gives Shaak the edge in melée: Lightsaber Duelist. Plus she has the potential to do 30 damage on her own turn with the double attack with cunning. Without renewal, Saesee will go down quickly burning FP on blocks and rerolling Djem So.
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I agree with Weeks. Shaak Ti can block and reposte in the same turn (even though it costs 2 FPs) with Stealth she is harder to hit against non melee and benfits from evade (BBSV and Rieekan).
Saesse will avoid the crits, but can still take massive amounts of damage from a Dash like shooter.
Shaak Ti all the way!
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Meh, Saesee is underated. Surprise move is an excellent ability, and is pretty much the key to getting him into combat. As for who is better against Melee, it really depends on who you are facing. Against those who can make three or more, Saesee's damage output should outweigh Shaak Ti's. Shaak Ti may be better overall, but Saesee is much better with taking on big Melee threats.
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Weeks wrote:Shaak-ti More Damage output and stealth keeps her from dying to range. cicrush13 wrote:Saesse will avoid the crits, but can still take massive amounts of damage from a Dash like shooter. Problem is the question explicitely states Melee, so their usefulness against ranged attacks shouldn't even be considered. I really Like Saesee Tiin, but I think in a 1 on 1 fight between the 2, Shaak Ti is likely to win more often, reason being LS Duelist and Force Renewal.
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well the problem with that is if you cant only think about melee combat and dont think about range shooters will just pick you apart. Saesee just doesnt have any staying power when ive played him, only a 20d no range defence, only 3 fp's. It only costs 1 more to get shaak-ti AND she has more output with cunning.
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Weeks wrote:well the problem with that is if you cant only think about melee combat and dont think about range shooters will just pick you apart. True, but doesn't matter much if you know what you're facing. Or for something like Tile Wars where Stealth is all but useless.
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Well I guess if they just start next to each other tiin might win but if a game has been going a while and they meet up, even at full health, shaak ti would win. Tiin would be out of force points much too quickly while shaak ti would continue blocking for quite a while, making those possible djem so attacks mostly worthless. Even with that 14 attack tiin will miss against shaak almost half the time and won't have the force points to spend on re rolls, while shaak will only need a 3-7 to hit. Mettle helps but if you reroll djem so you won't be blocking much. Factor in cunning attack too and well, I think it is obvious. MoTF might let her block both attacks, tiin might block one.
Even against other melee pieces shaak will be blocking left and right.
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With Republic, focusing on niche specialties isn't a bad thing. You can easily cover Saesee Tiin's weaknesses in that faction.
And with Shaak vs Saesee, it is all how you view the piece. Shaak Ti's Block becomes less ideal when facing someone a Melee user who can attack more than 2 times, whereas Saesee will definately cause some doubt about attacking him with a Melee fig. He is more effective in his role than Anakin of Nelvaan.
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In a one on one fight, which is really the only way to gauge this, its all about initiative rolls. With init, Shaak has superior dmg output, and a much better chance to hit, needing only a 3, opposed to Tiin needing a 10?. If she doesnt get the initiative though, she will hit roughly 3/5 times, and while yes, she has renewal, she can only do two a round, and will quickly run out between block and riposte, which Tiin can Djem So as well.
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well i use Saesee Tiin more often, in a fight against the vong Shak Ti is absolutly useless, Saesee can hold his own against vong, i really use saesee more in my gungan builds because he is a better counter against lancer droids which are a gungans worst nightmare
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nerfherderpictures wrote: i really use saesee more in my gungan builds because he is a better counter against lancer droids which are a gungans worst nightmare ???? I don't think that's true at all. Do the math. Shaak Ti does more damage to a Lancer on average. What you mean is that Saesee has a chance (albeit it very minor and barely higher than Shaak Ti critting anyways) to kill one in one strafe. Saesee needs a 7 to hit a Lancer, and Shaak Ti needs an 8, or 4 with cunning (for example if the Lancer was pawned before it takes its own turn), down to a 2 depending on how many characters are adjacent to her. Considering you would be countering a Lancer with her, there is no reason not to have 2-3 figures adj to her at all times, giving her a 2-4 to hit the lancer. For your sake (to make the math look better for you than it is, I will only use the 4 - which means 2 characters adj to shaak, and no cunning). So in this scenario (remember, we are ignoring cunning because we are giving you the best case, if the lancer is pawned first, the math clearly shows shaak is by far the better choice), here is the math. Saesee will make his djem so save 50% of the time, and then has a 70% chance of hitting. Here are the odds of the possible results happening. Chance of making both saves with a fp with mettle is just over 66%. Saesee making both saves, and hitting both attacks killing the lancer - 20% Saesee making both saves, hitting 1/2 doing 30 to the lancer - 26% Seasee making both saves, hitting 0 doing 0 dmg - 20% Saesee making one save and hitting doing 30 - 17% Saesee making one save and hitting 0 doing 0 dmg - 7% Saesee making no saves and doing 0 dmg - 9% Added all up = Lancer taking 60 dmg - 23% (chance of a crit added in) Lancer taking 30 dmg - 41% Lancer taking 0 dmg - 36% Average dmg is then - 25 Shaak Ti needs no saves, just needs 2 FPs and makes attacks - again assuming needing a 4 to hit Lancer takes 60 (one crit, one hit) - 9.3% Lancer takes 40 - (either two hits, or one miss one crit) 73% Lancer takes 20 - 15.7% Lancer takes 0 - 2% Average dmg - 38 So the difference in the chance to kill a non-pawned lancer in one strafe is 13% better for Saesee. However, after that, Shaak Ti is superior in the average damage she can land on the lancer. Now if you calculate in cunning attack and the complete prevention of your opponent being able to pawn then strafe (a major shut down of lancer stength), Shaak Ti is the superior choice against the lancer. With all that said, I agree that Saesee is a good idea, and a good choice for your squad. It's just that if you were actually looking at just the lancer, it wouldn't necessarily be justified :)
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Lancer is a Droid. No critical.
WOW. Never even considered Pawning WITHOUT being activated.
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here is why Saesee is better against lancer droids, you can move him before initiative with surprise move, the player generaly will get the strafer in position a turn early and during initiative you get the chance to move Saesee in front of your units while shak ti has to be at the right place at the right time and be under the right settings to kill the lancer in one go
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New math on which one is better defense versus a Lancer. Changes... 1. Lancer is a droid, so no criticals. 2. Have to assume Saesee will use a force point to reroll at some point, whether on a djem so or on a hit. 3. If we're talking Lancers they have 50 hp, so we'll max the damage at 50. 4. Assume no Cunning for Shaak Ti. Opponent would be crazy to pawn a Lancer over top of Shaak Ti - pretty much automatic death. So she's great as a deterrent that way but less likely to kill it. Let's assume 3 adjacent characters for Shaak Ti, which means she needs a 5 to hit. The math on Shaak Ti is pretty easy: ( EDIT: Shaak Ti numbers corrected thanks to biliv15. Her numbers were also corrected in the paragraph below.) 2 hits: 90.25% chance. 1 hit: 9.5% chance. 0 hits: 0.25% chance. Expected damage: 38 Chance of killing full-health Lancer: 0% Chance of killing 40HP Lancer: 90.25% The math on Saesee Tiin is a lot harder, but here's the summary: Expected damage: 32.505 (With all 60 damage results reduced to 50 damage. It's 36.4 if you count 2 hits as 60 points damage.) Chance of killing full-health Lancer: 38.85% Chance of killing 40HP Lancer: 38.85% So Shaak Ti is better versus pawned lancers (since they either took 10 damage from being pawned or they haven't yet activated and she gets cunning). Saesee Tiin is better versus non-pawned Lancers. That's because the real number we want to look at is chance of killing the Lancer, which is 39% for Saesee Tiin and 0% for Shaak Ti when full strength. But it's 90.25% for Shaak Ti if the Lancer was previously pawned and took 10 dmg, and even higher if it is currently being pawned and she gets Cunning. Here's the messy math for Saesee Tiin in case someone wants to see the details. Explanation available but it's really not worth it: Code:Outcome DS FPRR Hit FPRR DS FPRR Hit FPRR Prob Exp Dmg
FFxxFxxx 0.5 0.3 1.0 1.0 0.5 1.0 1.0 1.0 7.500% 0.0
FFxxPxFx 0.5 0.3 1.0 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.3 1.0 2.250% 0.0
FFxxPxPx 0.5 0.3 1.0 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 5.250% 1.6
FPFxFxxx 0.5 0.7 0.3 1.0 0.5 1.0 1.0 1.0 5.250% 0.0
FPFxPxFx 0.5 0.7 0.3 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.3 1.0 1.575% 0.0
FPFxPxPx 0.5 0.7 0.3 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 3.675% 1.1
FPPxFxxx 0.5 0.7 0.7 1.0 0.5 1.0 1.0 1.0 12.250% 3.7
FPPxPxFx 0.5 0.7 0.7 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.3 1.0 3.675% 1.1
FPPxPxPx 0.5 0.7 0.7 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 8.575% 4.3
PxFFFxxx 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.5 1.0 1.0 1.0 0.750% 0.0
PxFFPxFx 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.5 1.0 0.3 1.0 0.225% 0.0
PxFFPxPx 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.525% 0.2
PxFPFxxx 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.9 0.5 1.0 1.0 1.0 6.750% 2.0
PxFPPxFx 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.9 0.5 1.0 0.3 1.0 2.025% 0.6
PxFPPxPx 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.9 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 4.725% 2.4
PxPxFFxx 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.5 0.3 1.0 1.0 5.250% 1.6
PxPxFPFx 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.5 0.7 0.3 1.0 3.675% 1.1
PxPxFPPx 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.5 0.7 0.7 1.0 8.575% 4.3
PxPxPxFF 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.1 0.525% 0.2
PxPxPxFP 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.3 0.9 4.725% 2.4
PxPxPxPx 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 0.5 1.0 0.7 1.0 12.250% 6.1
100.000% 32.505
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Oh - there's one other situation to consider, which is the 30HP Lancer. Suppose for example another Djem So piece already hit him once. If he has 30HP, Shaak Ti has 64% of killing him (much higher if she gets Cunning) and Saesee Tiin has 82.45% chance of killing him.
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FlyingArrow wrote:
1. Lancer is a droid, so no criticals.
Ah yes, silly me :) Although, you might not realize it, but all that this does is eliminate the 9% chance Shaak could kill a non-pawned lancer without cunning, and remove 3% chance to kill from Saesee. Your numbers are wrong on that however, but I assume it's because of the numbers you used for this test. I assumed GGDAC in play, so that the lancer has a 21 defense. Your numbers for Shaak are also off. FlyingArrow wrote:2. Have to assume Saesee will use a force point to reroll at some point, whether on a djem so or on a hit. I did, and I assumed he used it to reroll the Djem so that fails, but obviously he could use it to reroll a miss. Rerolling the djem so had a significant effect on the average damage, rerolling a miss was almost nothing (difference of like 1 point of damage). FlyingArrow wrote:3. If we're talking Lancers they have 50 hp, so we'll max the damage at 50. That's false. The problem is, neither Shaak nor Saesee does 10 or 30 dmg hits without cunning on Shaak. So you have to use 20, 40, 60 as the values to get an accurate average. FlyingArrow wrote:4. Assume no Cunning for Shaak Ti. Opponent would be crazy to pawn a Lancer over top of Shaak Ti - pretty much automatic death. So she's great as a deterrent that way but less likely to kill it. This needs to be emphasized. This is an absolutely huge deterrent. In fact, this alone is more than enough strategically to show that Shaak is the better option. You've eliminated a ton of your opponent's options, but you would probably have to have played the lancer, 2 lancers, or against them multiple times in high level play to really see how important this piece is. If you play this right with Shaak, you can effectively cut the lancer's options by more than half. We should not also forget that Shaak can't be hit by the IG either until it gets within 6, and not by GGDAC either, which make her even more of a better choice against a "LANCER SQUAD" as opposed to just a one on one oversimplification. FlyingArrow wrote:Let's assume 3 adjacent characters for Shaak Ti, which means she needs a 5 to hit. +13+2+2+2 = 19. Lancer's defense is a 21 with GGDAC. Your numbers are off. FlyingArrow wrote:The math on Shaak Ti is pretty easy:
2 hits: 64% chance.
1 hit: 32% chance.
0 hits: 4% chance. It should be under this scenario 2 hits 90.25% 1 hit 9.5% 0 hit .25% FlyingArrow wrote:Expected damage: 32
Chance of killing full-health Lancer: 0%
Chance of killing 40HP Lancer: 64% ED - 38 FH - 0 40hp - 90.25 FlyingArrow wrote:The math on Saesee Tiin is a lot harder, but here's the summary:
Expected damage: 32.505 (With all 60 damage results reduced to 50 damage.)
Chance of killing full-health Lancer: 38.85%
Chance of killing 40HP Lancer: 38.85% You did something completely wrong here. The odds of killing a full health lancer are basically 22%. I'm not going to check every number in your box to find the problem, but I agree it's complicated. But logic should have told you this was wrong before you reported it. Think about it. You need to make 2 50% saves, then 2 70% hits. Even when you can reroll one of those 4 rolls, there is no way the success rate of all of it becomes 38% :) FlyingArrow wrote:So Shaak Ti is better versus pawned lancers (since they either took 10 damage from being pawned or they haven't yet activated and she gets cunning). Saesee Tiin is better versus non-pawned Lancers. That's because the real number we want to look at is chance of killing the Lancer, which is 39% for Saesee Tiin and 0% for Shaak Ti when full strength. But it's 64% for Shaak Ti if the Lancer was previously pawned and took 10 dmg, and even higher if it is currently being pawned and she gets Cunning.
Do your math again, I'm nearly certain its not 39% for Saesee.
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