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V-Set Discussion: Jedi Seer Options
Ruhk
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:32:07 AM
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the Jedi Seer is the newest piece that has been previewed from the V-set over at Gamers.

The full info can be found here:
Jedi Seer Bothan Transmission, unscrambled!

Its an interesting addition to the Old Republic faction, reasonably costed (no more than a battlemaster). While it's stats are lower than the JBM, it has a few new tricks that will give it a niche and increase its playability.

With Surprise Move, a nice movement breaker is added.

But it's newest, neatest thing is it's new ability called:

Jedi Reflexes!

Which essentially allow the Jedi Seer to take attacks of opportunity against characters that it would otherwise not be able to! Add that to it's Quick Reactions, it means the Jedi Seer will be able to hit most of the time.

the Old republic gain a nice way to handle the scouge that is the Lancer Droid, as well as a way to try to lock down other characters with Flight, like Boba Fett, Cad Bane.. etc.

Certainly an exciting piece and well designed to boot!

What are your thoughts?

@Design Team members: I think this is what you are going for when you say "discuss the piece, but don't post stats/spoilers". If its too much..feel free to have it removed.
juice man
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:49:55 AM
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I'm getting all tingly thinking that ALL the V-set is good.
Jedi Reflexes - can you attack someone who enters an adjacent square as well?

PS I read your posts RuhkLaugh
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:51:25 AM
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Very nice. Something to slow down a Lancer. Gets to attacks of opportunity versus enemies with flight and also gets that attack of opportunity before the Lancer gets to attack. It also has evade, which is good for defense but just as importantly (I think) is that it gets access to GMA. So move 12 with Surprise Move, smack for 40dmg and and lock the enemy down at the same time or they take another 20. Awesome piece. An Old Republic JWM-type piece (mid-range beat with some defensive abilities) with a very, very different feel. Initial reaction: A++ to the design team!
Ruhk
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:53:38 AM
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yay! someone loves me!

IIRC yes, the wording is such that when an opponent bases you, you are granted an attack of opportunity!

However you are still limited to 1/turn.
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:59:46 AM
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+1 Design Team for another great V-set piece. ThumpUp
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:22:04 AM
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It truly is a brilliant design. Quick Reflexes with Jedi Reflexes is an amazing combo, and definately gives the OR a bit of anti Yobuck/Lancer. And considering it has Evade, they are going to get a nasty hit in. But even more important is the way they synergize with the Exile. Surprise Move to set up a Triple, heck yeah. And to make the ultimate synergy, add in a Twi'lek Vigo. It is a piece that is designed to work well in the current meta and with their factions strongest pieces. The design team really, really hit it out of the park with this piece.
Demosthenes
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:43:11 AM
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Since I stopped being stubborn and actually started picking up some OR pieces, the Jedi Seer looks like fun to play with. Like Sithborg said, I look forward to using them with the Exile and a TBSV.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:57:58 AM
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I do have to say, though, that this just makes me feel like it should have been 40 instead of 60. The meta doesn't need to change so drastically so quickly. 60 competitive pieces at once compared to only about 10-20 at a time from the WotC releases...
Weeks
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:07:25 PM
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@Flying Arrow. If by change the meta you mean make OR somewhat usable then yes thats what will happen :)

The piece is super solid Annoys with Evade till you base it, when you base it he smacks you in the face. Also beats little guys that try to hit him.
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:43:46 PM
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Is it better to have maybe 30 different pieces changing things up in a set, or only 5? Things are going to change, ideally for the better, since the current meta is good, just not perfect yet.
qvos
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:05:16 PM
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Thanks for posting that Ruhk. The stats look good. Anything to stop that Lancer for the OR!
Lord_Ball
Posted: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:58:30 PM
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Given the reasons behind the piece and it's abilities I wonder if it's attack value might be a tad bit high (this is mainly due to Quick Reactions adding +6). A drop in attack by 1 or 2 points would still make the figure very well balanced. Though I can say the Old Republic captain + 3 Jedi Seers (all within 6 of each other) could be an interesting squad base.

As long as the Seers can't gain Twin Attack it's not so bad, but I think they'd be overpowered if they ever did (though not as much so if the Attack was lowered, as they'd be a bit more of a "gimmick").

The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:27:31 AM
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Lord_Ball wrote:
Given the reasons behind the piece and it's abilities I wonder if it's attack value might be a tad bit high (this is mainly due to Quick Reactions adding +6). A drop in attack by 1 or 2 points would still make the figure very well balanced. Though I can say the Old Republic captain + 3 Jedi Seers (all within 6 of each other) could be an interesting squad base.

As long as the Seers can't gain Twin Attack it's not so bad, but I think they'd be overpowered if they ever did (though not as much so if the Attack was lowered, as they'd be a bit more of a "gimmick").



Correction : "Old Republic Captain + 4 Jedi Seers". It's a common misconception that Squad ------- requires only 3 of a given figure to work, but it actually requires 4. The one getting the benefit plus three others within 6.

Yeah, I initially thought the base attack + Quick Reactions was a bit high, then I remembered that to be a direct (non-gimmicked) counter to Lancer (21) or Kybuck (20 + block) their attack needs to be a significant threat. If you're going to miss half the time and, in the case of Yoda, they're going to Block half the time...it's not a huge determent.

In other cases, that low of an attack is usually scoffed at (when Quick Reactions is not in effect) so the piece is a good balance in that regard. Judge the meta correctly at an event and you have a good chance. Judge incorrectly and you have an uphill battle.
wannabe mexican
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:22:09 AM
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I am vey much looking forwardto this piece. I love that it can get GMA.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:27:29 AM
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The Celestial Warrior wrote:

Correction : "Old Republic Captain + 4 Jedi Seers". It's a common misconception that Squad ------- requires only 3 of a given figure to work, but it actually requires 4. The one getting the benefit plus three others within 6.

Yeah, I initially thought the base attack + Quick Reactions was a bit high, then I remembered that to be a direct (non-gimmicked) counter to Lancer (21) or Kybuck (20 + block) their attack needs to be a significant threat. If you're going to miss half the time and, in the case of Yoda, they're going to Block half the time...it's not a huge determent.

In other cases, that low of an attack is usually scoffed at (when Quick Reactions is not in effect) so the piece is a good balance in that regard. Judge the meta correctly at an event and you have a good chance. Judge incorrectly and you have an uphill battle.


Thanks for the correction - I was just looking over the offical OR CE characters, and forgot squad abilities require 3 additional.
My main concern over the high attack is future commander effects for the OR if the Seer could recieved Twin Attack it would be a beast for it's cost.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:35:18 AM
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I don't see them getting Twin anytime soon. Even then, Quick Reactions would only work on the first attack. +10 is decent. I could see you using Malak to boost their attack, but I think the Exile is still a much better option.
LoboStele
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:38:27 AM
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Well, the Seer can't get Twin in faction, and with easy (and the cheapest) access to Extra Attack through the Exile, getting a piece that grants Twin would be pretty crazy, IMO, so I doubt that would ever happen. Then you'd get crazy stuff like Battlemasters with Triple/Twin, etc. Would be too much.

Now however....in a no-faction restriction game....with Whorm and Exile and a TBSV....Oh yeah, loads of fun. :P

As for getting attack boosts....They are only a +16 WITH Quick Reactions/Redi Reflexes. They still need 5's or better to hit most big enemies, and once you are adjacent to them, they're going to die very quickly. Evade and Jedi Reflexes are their only defenses at all. Otherwise, they are fairly fragile. Many OR teams have one or two non-melee threats, but more and more they tend to center around things like the Battlemasters, Lord Hoth, Cay Qel-Droma, etc. So in many cases, you'll be able to afford to sit back and make the Seer come to you.

I'll go ahead and let you guys know, which is something I've not said on Gamers, but the Seer is VERY good at protecting important commanders which may be hiding slightly away from the battle. Commanders don't do so well if someone starts attacking them and breaking their concentration, so there's another piece in the V Set that will want to be paired with the Seer very frequently. :)
The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:50:57 AM
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Depends on the cost to add Twin which, by the way, I doubt will happen.

As it stands now, at 27 points you're going to have to put your eggs in one basket to effectively counter the Lancer with this piece. A single piece can only put 40 damage on the Lancer before it falls to it itself, then you figure Gha Nackt Repairing it each turn amounts to only 20 total damage.

With two Seers, you're making the Lancer player work for his kills and over two rounds will trade one of your Seers for the Lancer (even with Repair) and leaving the other at half HP. That's 54 point total you've invested for a 30 (rapport) point piece and will leave you down in points at least 30-35 ( including any other strafe kills).

Add a third and you're at 81 points, but you can kill the lancer in one round and not lose a single Seer.

If the Old Republic gets a piece that grants Twin, it'll be at least around 20 points and only Range 6, so by the time you add two Mouse Droids you are roughly at the same cost. A Seer with Twin can do the same amount of damage per round as the above scenario with 2 Seers. You're still at the same cost, have a few more activations, but your damage per HP has dropped.

Of course Twin would open the piece up to some GMA abuse, but adding that up you get: Exile 49, TBSV 18, Twin Granter 20ish and Mouse Droids plus the Seer. You're already at about 125ish points with just one Seer added and to get the 120 damage you are only swinging at +10...likely vs 20+ with Djem So, Armor, Duelist etc.

So in some regards, you're right, that Twin would make it a beast for it's cost. 27 points for 6 attacks at +10 Attack is pretty deadly, but when you factor in everything behind it, I'd still say it's fairly balanced. Any lower attack and I think the piece would end up nigh worthless.

Well done, Design Team and playtesters.

The Celestial Warrior
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:56:56 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
I don't see them getting Twin anytime soon. Even then, Quick Reactions would only work on the first attack.


Wow, I hadn't even thought of it like that, but yeah, given the fact that you only truly make 1 Aoo per round, that would be correct, wouldn't it.
Weeks
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2010 1:59:37 AM
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I wouldnt worry about it too much a seer with GMA while really cool is only attacking at +10. Meaning it will need 10's to hit most other jedi. It also cant block or in the the case of mara deflect any oncoming shots. I see them as a piece you send after the han/rex/dash's of the world get close evade some shots win init then suprize move in for the double/triple.

It is one of my favorite pieces in the set just cause it's so differant and adds a lot to what the faction has going for it.
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