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Blaster Barrage Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:19:52 AM
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Sorry if this has been asked before but I can not find the answer anywhere.
So if I use blaster barrage and for some reason I do not want to attack one of the targets, do I have to? I know that with abilities like strafe attack the attack is not optional, so I was just wondering if I had to make the attack on every legal target or if I could pick and chose who I wanted to shoot.
cmears
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:54:48 AM
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Just going off "Instead of making its normal attack or attacks, a character using this Force power can attack every legal target once." As far as grammer goes the key word is CAN. So I would have to say that being able to attack every legal target once is not the same as having to attack every legal target once. That is just from a grammer stand point and I can't say what the intent is or was for this force power.
confute
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:04:19 AM
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One more question on blaster barrage.
When you announce you are using blaster barrage you pick all your legal targets and then resolve.
If there is a enemy character adjacent to you, can you target other characters? I know if the other characters have cover you cant, but what about a character without cover


Bah! Never mind its in the FAQ.
A legal target is determined according to the normal rules -- in other words, the attacker must have line of sight, if the target has cover it must be the nearest enemy, and if any enemies are adjacent they are the only legal targets.
countrydude82487
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:19:20 AM
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actually i am not sure you can choose if i am thinking clearly and correctly you cant. Blaster Barrage, sweep, Various Light saber throws (3, 5), and Furious assault require you to attack every legal target. The can in the definition doesnt matter for that purpose

Quote:
As this character moves, it can attack each enemy whose space it enters; this turn, this character cannot attack any enemy twice and cannot move directly back into a space it has just left. This ability is usable only on this character's turn.


even in the case of strafe it says can but you do have to attack every target that you pass.
billiv15
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:28:46 AM
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Because the word can has multiple meanings. Perhaps you should look it up before you try to parse it how you want it to read :). In many cases in SWMs can means, "has the ability to". In the case of BB, I'm pretty certain you have to attack all legal targets, although I'm not 100% certain.
confute
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:31:21 AM
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I thought with strafe you had either to strafe (and attack each target whose square you enter) or not strafe.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:31:57 AM
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This seems to speak to the question:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75862/19462010/Darth_Vader,_Unleashed_38;_LS_Throw?pg=1

Nickname wrote:
This is pretty consistant--targeted attacks are optional, while non-targeted attacks are manditory.

There's an exception for each but they both explicitly say so (Blaster Barrage/Furious Assault, and AOOs respectively.)


I don't see where BB/FA explicitly state that it is not optional to attack certain legal targets, but I think countrydude82487 is correct that it the same situation LS Throw 3/5 and Strafe - once you turn it on there is no going back.

I think it would be very helpful for some additional FAQ entries to make this type of thing clear at first read.

Mandelmauler
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:41:14 AM
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Strafe:
As this character moves, it can attack each enemy whose space it enters

BB:
a character using this Force power can attack every legal target once.

I would think that they work the same: "can" = "must".
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 10:51:26 AM
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Quote:
Galloping Attack:
As this character moves, it can attack each adjacent enemy, +4 Attack; this turn, this character cannot attack any enemy twice and cannot move directly back into a space it has just left. This ability is usable only on this character's turn.


Here, "can" does not equal "must". Cursing

qvos
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 11:53:18 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
Quote:
Galloping Attack:
As this character moves, it can attack each adjacent enemy, +4 Attack; this turn, this character cannot attack any enemy twice and cannot move directly back into a space it has just left. This ability is usable only on this character's turn.


Here, "can" does not equal "must". Cursing

Interesting, But it makes sense considering characters with Galloping attack don't have flight. they take a chance if they don't take out the selected character.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 12:26:23 PM
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qvos wrote:
Interesting, But it makes sense considering characters with Galloping attack don't have flight. they take a chance if they don't take out the selected character.


Yeah, I don't have a problem with how any of these work, just the non-intuitive way they are worded.
cmears
Posted: Thursday, June 2, 2011 9:39:59 PM
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billiv15 wrote:
Because the word can has multiple meanings. Perhaps you should look it up before you try to parse it how you want it to read :). In many cases in SWMs can means, "has the ability to". In the case of BB, I'm pretty certain you have to attack all legal targets, although I'm not 100% certain.


There are a couple of usages for can but they all have the same meaning, to indicate a right, privilege, ability, or power. This is both physical or mental such as the President can veto Congressional bills or I can carry the box for you. Having the ability to do something is not the same as having to do it. Police have the ability to ticket someone for speeding but they don't have to (warnings). Must would have been a better word to use in the place of can if the intent was to require a character to do something not a word that denotes having the ability to do something.

That being said if a precedent has been set saying that powers and abilities that are similar in wording such as LS 3/5 or Strafe require a specific out come then that overrides the text.
Yoto_Yoto
Posted: Friday, June 3, 2011 3:01:49 AM
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In a perfect world, game designers would use "may" or "must" to distinguish these optional from non-optional, as they're much clearer than "can". IIRC Nickname has said the decision to use "can" was made before he was involved and stuck around for sake of consistency. In general, when it appears in ability text "can" in SWM means "must" which causes confusion from time to time. I'd be interested to check my memory against reality if Nickname is interested.
billiv15
Posted: Friday, June 3, 2011 4:06:19 AM
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cmears wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Because the word can has multiple meanings. Perhaps you should look it up before you try to parse it how you want it to read :). In many cases in SWMs can means, "has the ability to". In the case of BB, I'm pretty certain you have to attack all legal targets, although I'm not 100% certain.


There are a couple of usages for can but they all have the same meaning, to indicate a right, privilege, ability, or power. This is both physical or mental such as the President can veto Congressional bills or I can carry the box for you. Having the ability to do something is not the same as having to do it. Police have the ability to ticket someone for speeding but they don't have to (warnings). Must would have been a better word to use in the place of can if the intent was to require a character to do something not a word that denotes having the ability to do something.

That being said if a precedent has been set saying that powers and abilities that are similar in wording such as LS 3/5 or Strafe require a specific out come then that overrides the text.


Well you are half right. The word can, does indeed mean these characters have the "ability to do X". In otherwords, a Lancer "can" strafe, Mara "can" blaster barrage and so forth. It denotes nothing about choice however in the SWMs context. You have to look beyond the axillary verb in each of these abilities to understand what is required to fulfill it. When a character strafes, they have the ability to "attack every character whose space they enter", the word can, denotes "has the ability to". In the case of gallop, a character has the ability to "attack every adjacent character as it moves" - the word can against denotes "has the ability to". The question of choice or no choice comes from the targeting rules generally speaking. Now, is this correct English use of the word? Almost. Here's a nice quote from dictionary.com which explains the common confusion that has happened with the WotC designer.


—Usage note
Can 1 and may 1 are frequently but not always interchangeable in senses indicating possibility: A power failure can (or may ) occur at any time. Despite the insistence by some, that can means only “to be able” and may means “to be permitted,” both are regularly used in seeking or granting permission: Can (or May ) I borrow your tape recorder? You can (or may ) use it tomorrow.


As you can see, they are used interchangeably, but they aren't necessarily the same thing. But common usage has removed that delineation from our common parlance, thus leading to confusion. My point is simple. Can generally means "has the ability to" in SWMs. You can either exact that statement, which came to us through Nickname from the designers or you can argue it. I'm simply telling you, that to follow the rules right, you will usually look at whether or not an attack is a targetted attack or not to determine if you have "choice", not by parsing the word "can" which is an ambiguous word anyways. Now, as it happens, Furious Assault and Blaster Barrage are two of the examples that actually break that general rule. But I believe it's because "can attack every legal target once" at the end of the phrase for BB. The "every legal target" is supposed to tell you that you "must".
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, June 3, 2011 6:13:37 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
I'm simply telling you, that to follow the rules right, you will usually look at whether or not an attack is a targetted attack or not to determine if you have "choice", not by parsing the word "can" which is an ambiguous word anyways. Now, as it happens, Furious Assault and Blaster Barrage are two of the examples that actually break that general rule. But I believe it's because "can attack every legal target once" at the end of the phrase for BB. The "every legal target" is supposed to tell you that you "must".


Looking at this as compared to Galloping Attack, I can see it a little bit better now. If BB/FA said "can attack each legal target", that could imply choice.

It's just messy, and much of the confusion could be cleared up by adding to the FAQ:

Galloping Attack
Q. If I use Galloping Attack, am I required to attack each adjacent enemy as I move, or can Razz I choose which enemies to attack?
A. You can choose.

Blaster Barrage/Furious Assault
Q. If I use BB/FA, am I required to attack all legal targets, or can I choose which legal targets to attack?
A. You must attack every legal target.

Done. Smile

I would note that the FAQ has no entries for BB, and the entry for FA mentions "selecting" targets, which is also problematic since you don't select them - they either are or aren't legal targets from the square you choose to end your movement in.

Good discussion. I think I might actually be able to explain this stuff to someone now. Maybe. Wink
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, June 3, 2011 7:34:24 AM
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all right so I am getting that it looks like you would have to target every legal target.
Time to dig out the x-1 and gungan shield bearers, woohoooo. take that Arica.
confute
Posted: Friday, June 3, 2011 7:47:06 AM
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Hi Swinefeld,
The FAQ actually has an extensive entry for Blaster Barrage. Its a force power not a special ability.
The site where I was looking at was:

http://www.the-holocron.com

Under rules resources and FAQs
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, June 3, 2011 11:16:27 AM
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confute wrote:
Hi Swinefeld,
The FAQ actually has an extensive entry for Blaster Barrage. Its a force power not a special ability.
The site where I was looking at was:

http://www.the-holocron.com

Under rules resources and FAQs


Hmm, yes, Force Powers would be the correct section to look in, wouldn't it?

I shall now go pick up the remaining pieces of my scattered brain, lol.

Thanks BlooMilk
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