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Echo24 wrote:AndyHatton wrote:Echo24 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Boris wrote:Lord_Ball wrote:as for mara yeah gotta wonder what they were thinking, Luke FS giving someone Mettle, Mara giving Avoid Defeat, Leia giving Rerolls - that's only 93 points leaving plenty of room in a 200 point squad. Lord Vader uses Overwhelming Force. Morrigan has Suppressive Fire. Several characters have Brutal Strike. We didn't just make the CE without thinking it through, and it was playtested. We never heard any complaints. I realize on its face it looks tough - especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set - but we made several hard counters to these things in set 4, so give it a whirl before passing judgement.  Um, to my knowledge none on these things effect avoid defeat. Suppressive Fire would get through Mara giving out Avoid Defeat, although it wouldn't do anything about it being on her card. I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia, but you deal with it the exact same way you deal with all Leia Skywalker squads: kill her first. You don't try to cut through Kol Skywalker with his double Block rolls or whatever, you go kill her. Yeah, Winter makes it more difficult, but she is still relatively easy to kill even with Avoid Defeat. Everything having to be within 6 hurts it somewhat, too. You just go kill Winter first, then Leia, then Mara. Or just kill Mara when she isn't benefiting from Leia's CE (too far from her or kill the mouse droids). The damage output for that squad is really pretty low, and there is a relatively easy way around the survivability, so it shouldn't be an issue. Leia's CE only affects Force Using Followers so both Winter and Leia do not benefit. Leia has always been a defensive weak point in NR squads. Find her and kill her and Avoid Defeat won't be so bad. (Assuming you mean Mara's CE, because you're right about that) Oh man, good point. I forgot that Mara didn't help Winter. So yeah, Mara + Leia + Winter isn't even that strong. Neither Winter nor Leia benefit from Mara. The damage output in your squad is relatively low and the survivability gimmick is easy to get around. Duh on me. Yeah I meant Mara. I'll edit my post. My thoughts exactly. Mara+Winter+Leia is pricey. You might be able to fit another follower threat in (Jaina, Corran, or Kyle on the hefty side, maybe Jacen, Jaden, or Kol in the slightly less expensive side.) In my opinion you want Jaina or Jacen since you get the protective bonus going from boh Mara and Winter to increase your damage slightly. But something like Mara+Leia+Winter+Jaina is 167 points. If you want Luke FS, that is 177. That doesn't leave a lot of room for flexibility. Jacen is much easier to work with and you can probably get a decent, full squad out of him, but he goes down hard at range without Wedge, and ANY kind of direct damage wrecks him.
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Leia had been weak... she has access to evade now, which may actually be a huge help.
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adamb0nd wrote:Leia had been weak... she has access to evade now, which may actually be a huge help. But to do that is like 64 points in addition to Leia. While cool, it is a lot to bring in old Jaina and Han, Rebel General to do just that in a Mara squad. I think it will be fun to do with Luke, Leia, and an NR Chewie when we get him. (EDITED!)
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Mara is another case of where I don't hate her because I think she will be tier 1 and unbeatable. I think it's the type of squad that most good players won't use. But some mediocre player will use it and they will continue to get the avoid defeat saves. Saying "kill Leia first" is easier said than done. A halfway decent player will make you suffer for entering the lion's den. Without accurate shot you don't have much of a prayer. Go on in, and try to take out Leia while Mara and Corran beat you down. And really, when it comes to big beats - they make the save ONCE, and it's game changing.
It's just another instance of a piece being created where luck makes a GIANT swing, not a minor one. We don't need any more of that.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Mara is another case of where I don't hate her because I think she will be tier 1 and unbeatable. I think it's the type of squad that most good players won't use. But some mediocre player will use it and they will continue to get the avoid defeat saves. Saying "kill Leia first" is easier said than done. A halfway decent player will make you suffer for entering the lion's den. Without accurate shot you don't have much of a prayer. Go on in, and try to take out Leia while Mara and Corran beat you down. And really, when it comes to big beats - they make the save ONCE, and it's game changing.
It's just another instance of a piece being created where luck makes a GIANT swing, not a minor one. We don't need any more of that. I have to respectfully disagree. We play a d20 based game using the d20 die. The whole game is based around luck. We can crunch numbers, figure out probabilities, and find the most successful strategies. However, even if the have a defense of 16 and you have an attack of 20 you can still miss if you role a 1. Everything in the game has a measure of luck involved. I do not think it is a bad thing that situation luck plays a major role rather than a minor one.
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jlbm347 wrote:TimmerB123 wrote:Mara is another case of where I don't hate her because I think she will be tier 1 and unbeatable. I think it's the type of squad that most good players won't use. But some mediocre player will use it and they will continue to get the avoid defeat saves. Saying "kill Leia first" is easier said than done. A halfway decent player will make you suffer for entering the lion's den. Without accurate shot you don't have much of a prayer. Go on in, and try to take out Leia while Mara and Corran beat you down. And really, when it comes to big beats - they make the save ONCE, and it's game changing.
It's just another instance of a piece being created where luck makes a GIANT swing, not a minor one. We don't need any more of that. I have to respectfully disagree. We play a d20 based game using the d20 die. The whole game is based around luck. We can crunch numbers, figure out probabilities, and find the most successful strategies. However, even if the have a defense of 16 and you have an attack of 20 you can still miss if you role a 1. Everything in the game has a measure of luck involved. I do not think it is a bad thing that situation luck plays a major role rather than a minor one. I personally have never thought that avoid defeat was that great of an ability. I mean, it requires two saves, and gets you 10 HP. I've personally never seen it pulled off, and if i'm mistaken and I actually have, i'm positive that I didn't let the piece get much use out of those 10 extra HP. Now I understand, 10 hp and avoiding defeat means that piece could potentially get another activation, or force your enemy to spend another activation to defeat it... possibly multiple activations, which is game changing. But lets face it, every SA, FP, CE, or what ever is game changing. I don't think that AD is really that big a deal. The argument is more of AD + Mettle + Rerolls, etc but I have a feeling this squad looks much better on paper than in application. At worst, its competitive... god forbid, and then what? Shan shuts it down or Corde twin attacks and negates it and life goes on. This game is about checks and balance... and this combo is not unbeatable, and i would hardly call it broken... no more than any of the other competitive pieces we've been getting even before the V-Set was a spark in the designers eyes.
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Agreed, and well said.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Mara is another case of where I don't hate her because I think she will be tier 1 and unbeatable. I think it's the type of squad that most good players won't use. But some mediocre player will use it and they will continue to get the avoid defeat saves. Saying "kill Leia first" is easier said than done. A halfway decent player will make you suffer for entering the lion's den. Without accurate shot you don't have much of a prayer. Go on in, and try to take out Leia while Mara and Corran beat you down. And really, when it comes to big beats - they make the save ONCE, and it's game changing.
It's just another instance of a piece being created where luck makes a GIANT swing, not a minor one. We don't need any more of that. I think of her as a case of overpacked piece. Too much abilities packed in one card (that's the reason why text is so small). Being in the best faction where cost ratio/abilities is wayy underpriced also tels us something... She is a good addition to NR but I guess that people will still prefer to play MJJ due to her being non-melee and follower , as well as lower cost. Although new Mara can live longer due to avoid defeat...All in all, it's a players choice. I don't have any problem with her beside that we get two Mara's in 1 set (ok, officially in 2 sets but you get my point). Fringe Mara is good piece to any faction, then why the heck did we had to recieve another in JvsS?
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CerousMutor wrote:DARPH NADER wrote:Misses
Flim (for those of you who play tested him, you'll know what I'm talking about. O what might have been!) This makes me sad lol I loved the books and was very excited to see the 3 conspirators in this squad, very disappointed on how they turned out. I'd love to know 'what might have been' I expected young Boba to have a little more going on. Love the IG love now! About time! Anakin Solo and Force Meld! Thank you! Mara! Thank you!! Here are some of the stat blocks oldest first Flim 28? hp 50 def 18 +3 10 Unique (counts as thrawn) Cannot be in a sqaud with Palleon Greater Disruptive - Commander effects and special abilites that increase a characters base damage are supressed within 6 squares CE - At the end of his turn he can inspire an imperial ally to make an attack. this does not count as activating the attacking character or as an activation. Flim 28 points 50 Hit Points 18 Defense +3 Attack 10 Damage Special Abilities Unique Rival (Cannot be in a squad with characters whose names contain Thrawn or Palleon) Doctrine of Fear Commander Effect At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique follower within six squares may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round. At the end of that character's turn, it takes 10 damage. Flim 21 points 50 HP 16 def 7. Att 10 dam Unique Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate) CE:Followers gain Opportunist At the end of this characters turn one Imperial follower may make an Immediate Attack. Flim 22 Points 50 HP 14 Def 2 Att 10 Dam Unique Con (If an allied Imperial Character is defeated this character gains the defeated characters commander effect for the remainder of the skirmish. This character may only have one commander effect from this ability at one time) Doctrine of Fear Imperial Triumvirate. CE:At the end of this characters turn one follower within 6 squares may make an immediate attack. Flim 27 Points 30 HP (he's a wimp so low HP) 14 Def 2 Att 10 Dam Unique Doctrine of Fear Imperial Triumvirate. CE:CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own Flim 25 30 14 1 10 Confusion - enemy commander effects with a range may not extend to further then 6 squares away from enemy commanders. Unique Doctrine of Fear Imperial Triumvirate - 5 CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own. There was about 7 pages of discussion on this piece along with the other to IMPs.
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Boris wrote:MaliciousCrumb wrote:This isn't something that I really don't like, but it's more of a criticism. I think that the new Grievous should've had a commander effect because he was a general at that time, and was commanding a huge amount of super battle droids. The vision of him in this concept is more of his one-on-one fight with Obi-Wan on the catwalk. He really wasn't too worried about what the army of Droids was doing when he threw out his extra arms to come at the Jedi Master in his path. (At least, in my opinion, and the other designers as we discussed it.) Plus folks were asking for a Grievous that could cut through some troopers and a few jedi.
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About Flim: leshippy wrote:
There was about 7 pages of discussion on this piece along with the other to IMPs.
The only piece which had more versions was Disra I guess- I remember each one was totally different! :P
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jlbm347 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree. We play a d20 based game using the d20 die. The whole game is based around luck. We can crunch numbers, figure out probabilities, and find the most successful strategies. However, even if the have a defense of 16 and you have an attack of 20 you can still miss if you role a 1. Everything in the game has a measure of luck involved. I do not think it is a bad thing that situation luck plays a major role rather than a minor one.
 100% agree 
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jak wrote:jlbm347 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree. We play a d20 based game using the d20 die. The whole game is based around luck. We can crunch numbers, figure out probabilities, and find the most successful strategies. However, even if the have a defense of 16 and you have an attack of 20 you can still miss if you role a 1. Everything in the game has a measure of luck involved. I do not think it is a bad thing that situation luck plays a major role rather than a minor one.
100% agree Flame Thrower When you absolutely, positively have to kill every last scrubby nurf herder in the room, except no substitute. -Mace Windu
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jak wrote:jlbm347 wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree. We play a d20 based game using the d20 die. The whole game is based around luck. We can crunch numbers, figure out probabilities, and find the most successful strategies. However, even if the have a defense of 16 and you have an attack of 20 you can still miss if you role a 1. Everything in the game has a measure of luck involved. I do not think it is a bad thing that situation luck plays a major role rather than a minor one.
100% agree Nothing like needing one of two attacks to kill someting and rolling a one - twice. Or the only way you can lose is a crit, well look at that - a 20. 
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leshippy wrote:CerousMutor wrote:DARPH NADER wrote:Misses
Flim (for those of you who play tested him, you'll know what I'm talking about. O what might have been!) This makes me sad lol I loved the books and was very excited to see the 3 conspirators in this squad, very disappointed on how they turned out. I'd love to know 'what might have been' I expected young Boba to have a little more going on. Love the IG love now! About time! Anakin Solo and Force Meld! Thank you! Mara! Thank you!! Here are some of the stat blocks oldest first Flim 28? hp 50 def 18 +3 10 Unique (counts as thrawn) Cannot be in a sqaud with Palleon Greater Disruptive - Commander effects and special abilites that increase a characters base damage are supressed within 6 squares CE - At the end of his turn he can inspire an imperial ally to make an attack. this does not count as activating the attacking character or as an activation. Flim 28 points 50 Hit Points 18 Defense +3 Attack 10 Damage Special Abilities Unique Rival (Cannot be in a squad with characters whose names contain Thrawn or Palleon) Doctrine of Fear Commander Effect At the end of this character's turn, one non-unique follower within six squares may take an immediate turn, even if that ally has already activated this round. At the end of that character's turn, it takes 10 damage. Flim 21 points 50 HP 16 def 7. Att 10 dam Unique Imperial Triumvirate (costs 1 less in a squad with 2 other characters with Imperial Triumvirate) CE:Followers gain Opportunist At the end of this characters turn one Imperial follower may make an Immediate Attack. Flim 22 Points 50 HP 14 Def 2 Att 10 Dam Unique Con (If an allied Imperial Character is defeated this character gains the defeated characters commander effect for the remainder of the skirmish. This character may only have one commander effect from this ability at one time) Doctrine of Fear Imperial Triumvirate. CE:At the end of this characters turn one follower within 6 squares may make an immediate attack. Flim 27 Points 30 HP (he's a wimp so low HP) 14 Def 2 Att 10 Dam Unique Doctrine of Fear Imperial Triumvirate. CE:CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own Flim 25 30 14 1 10 Confusion - enemy commander effects with a range may not extend to further then 6 squares away from enemy commanders. Unique Doctrine of Fear Imperial Triumvirate - 5 CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own. There was about 7 pages of discussion on this piece along with the other to IMPs. Ahh Con with DoF and CE:CE:During Setup this character gains 1 Allies Commander effect and may use it as if it is its own looked almost perfect for him!  Thanks for showing those les, top bloke!
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no problem...always willing to share what I can.
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Mike Moore Smuggler wrote:Can someone please clear up 2 things for me.
1. Can you open doors during Battle Ready movements? It would seem a wasted ability if you couldn't as there are only 2 or 3 maps that you can use the ability to it's full.
2. If I use new epic Boba in a new republic squad but bring in a Mandalorian commader, say Mandalore the Vindicated does Boba benefit from his commander effect or is Boba considered New Republic? In the same way would Jaina Sword of the Jedi gain twin from Boba as she can count as Mandalorian? 1. No. Doors only open at the end of a character's turn. (There's already a precedent set with this through abilities like Surprise Move and Intuition.) 2. I don't have the card in front of me, but Affinity changes the character's faction. A commander effect that allows for the breaking of faction rules doesn't.
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Boris wrote:Mike Moore Smuggler wrote:
2. If I use new epic Boba in a new republic squad but bring in a Mandalorian commader, say Mandalore the Vindicated does Boba benefit from his commander effect or is Boba considered New Republic? In the same way would Jaina Sword of the Jedi gain twin from Boba as she can count as Mandalorian?
2. I don't have the card in front of me, but Affinity changes the character's faction. A commander effect that allows for the breaking of faction rules doesn't. boba has affinity so his faction would actually change to new republic. His commander effect brings in mandalorians so they keep their faction. SO by that precedent boba would not benefit from any commander effect that specifies mandalorian
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You know, I really, really like the new Han and Leia. Started looking at some Rebel squads for some V5 playtesting, and they are quite fun. They are great boosts to all the old Han and Leias, some that have never been played (Leia of CC with Cunning is fun).
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Sithborg wrote:You know, I really, really like the new Han and Leia. Started looking at some Rebel squads for some V5 playtesting, and they are quite fun. They are great boosts to all the old Han and Leias, some that have never been played (Leia of CC with Cunning is fun). Glad you like them. I hope to add (or at least see added) a Luke and Chewbacca with the Versatility ability at some point.
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