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urbanjedi wrote:droidadmiral wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:One thing Daala does to the meta that maybe not everyone likes is that she adds another viable 'extreme' squad.
Paper: Swarms. Paper thin (low hp) but covers the board.
Scissors: Swarm killers. Cuts up the paper squad.
Rock: Big hitters. Crushes pure scissors squad. Loses big to pure paper squad.
If Lancer (at least the double Lancer) is an extreme Scissors squad, Daala (at least the Barebones version I ran) is an extreme Paper squad. Daala is probably the first viable pure swarm squad that doesn't rely on death shots or self-destruct. Instead, it relies on the 12 square reach of the troops. She will have more trouble with a Lancer/Yobuck than the Naboobians, but she makes up for it by being stronger against traditional builds.
That advantage was a big part of my decision to take the Bare Bones Snowtroopers to PA regionals (21 with minimal commanders) instead of something like what Lou won with (12 troops with Pellaeon + 2 more commanders). The 21 will have more trouble against certain squad types (e.g. I had no Accurate to shoot past a Mouse wall and Chain Lightning would have been deadly), but against most traditional builds it's a strong advantage.
(Although the biggest part of my decision to take the 21-trooper version is that I didn't want to have to make a Pellaeon decision every skirmish.)
Klatooinian Assassins with any movement breaker would cause a problem for Daala squads. Not a huge problem because they're just 12 point pieces, but they can very easily trade in their favor. They can easily kill any trooper they can see, but if they can base multiple troopers, every trooper they base is automatically dead. Either they die from Self-Destruct or they die from an AoO trying to run away. If there's one kill and then base 2, or just base 3 to begin with, then the Klat wins that exchange. not necessarily true, the guy running 21 troopers could just decide to use the 3 that are based to combine fire and refuse to ever kill the klat assassin, leaving you to kill one trooper a turn with the klat. if the game only goes 4-5 rounds by the time his happens the person running the troopers won that exchange :) But a game should go more than 4-5 rounds. And if I can use one of my guys to neutralize 3 of your threats, I win that exchange every time. but they can still be useful to make sure you hit critical attacks, neutralizing 3 ppl for 4-5 rounds is great but the other 18 are still destroying stuff.
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Mando wrote:I'm thinking it might be a little early to say we didn't nerf Daala enough. I understand that the squads being discussed are frustrating, but give people in the community time to formulate inventive yet competitive counters. I know I have a couple of squads I'm taking to regional's this year that factor in the Daala swarm component, while also dealing with many other top tier squads. At the end of the regional season, we will have a clear view of what the nerf accomplished. I'm pretty much with this. The only things that really concern me about Daala are more the auxiliary things: i) They have access to the really good Imperial tech - Pellaeon and Ozzel. Means they can outactivate most things and have a force bubble. ii) The 40 reserves with Ozzel and Daala are nasty if you hit them (and I've had Daala hit reserves in the last 3 games I've played against her, and have hit them in my most recent games). But compared to before the errata, it's nowhere near so bad. It does feel beatable now, and hopefully the meta can adjust some more. But I do agree with the gatekeeper thing - if you can't kill a few at once, you'll have a tough time against them.
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The only comment I'm going to say is that Daala is a freaking pain to design around. Especially if you are designing a trooper. I just shake my head at Prideful.
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Sithborg wrote:The only comment I'm going to say is that Daala is a freaking pain to design around. Especially if you are designing a trooper. I just shake my head at Prideful. AMEN Scott..........AMEN
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Daala is a gatekeeper true, (not necessarily a horrible thing)...but the problem is that her counters have a very difficult time vs other squads.
Let's look at the 3 best Scissors squads:
Yobuck:
I've been trying to design a Yobuck squad that can handle Daala AND a large number of other squad types, and it is a massive headache. Yobuck is great vs swarms (that don't have Self-Destruct!), but if he can't make kills quickly enough, he runs out of steam and can't finish.
Lancer:
The Lancer is possible, but with all the lancer-hate out there, it's very risky to take a lancer-centered squad.
Arica:
Stealth 'n Blue will get out-acted by Daala, so Arica will likely never get her crucial big barrage...and once she's dead, it's just Cad vs the world. I'd say advantage Daala at least 60/40 or worse, depending on map. At least this squad is still quite solid vs the rest of the meta.
Other considerations:
--Someone mentioned uber-defense Mace: it might work, if not for the Pellaeon bubble, and if not for the high attack values of Snowtroopers (+20 in many builds). And then there's always combined-fire, when needed. High Defense just won't cut it anymore...there's too much tank-hate around now anyway, so I'm not sure how well Mace-GOWK can handle the other squads in the meta, even if the dice happen to go heavily in his favor in the Daala matchup.
--Momaw is great vs Raxus Primes when you have a 2-activation delivery system (tow, levitate) rather than a 3-activation delivery system (swap). He'll only get one good boom off, but if it's big enough it could turn the tables. But that's one of the reasons why Snowtroopers are probably the better meta call anyway (the other reason is the better accuracy and dmg of the Snowtroopers).
In short, I'd love to see someone come up with a solid counter to Daala that can at least hold its own vs the rest of the meta right now. Please, show me; or show it at a Regional. I'm not saying Daala is unbeatable...I'm saying that she's got a strangle-hold on the meta. And I'm still convinced of it. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I'm so certain of it that I'm willing to stick my neck out already now and call it like I see it. I really do hope that I'm wrong, because the meta was a whole lot more open and interesting before all this.
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Builds I thought about before LowerHuttACon. I don't know if any of them are exactly Tier 1, but just throwing them out there. It's more like brainstorming about what can take Daala - some of them might have problems against other things though.
i) Quednak is a great trooper counter - with Sha'kel it can go 30 squares, and since it's Cloaked, it can stay away from Troopers fairly easily. It does have the tension where it's maybe best with Zenoc Quah (+4 attack is very helpful), but it can't get access to override in a Zenoc Quah build, and the other player can block doors against it since it's Large.
ii) Republic Jorus. You can play around with Cloaked (Obi Wan Padawan with Cloaked and Jedi Reflexes can sit in gambit all day) and Strafe (Ani-Stap).
iii) Durge has the advantage over the Lancer that he can switch into Jedi Hunter for some matchups or against strafe hate. He should be able to outactivate Daala, and should have a pretty good shot against them.
iv) Tarpals/Momaw - double war throat is interesting, and with R2 you can maybe get it into position. Still only going to get some of the Troopers against a good player through.
v) Naboo. Probably something in Naboo that can have a good shot against Daala. Troopers, with lots of Troopers?
vi) Dooku plus lots of Drones. Using his CE to set drones off - good against Snow Troopers, not so much against Raxus with Wall Climber.
vii) Nom Bombs - you have a cheaper piece to trade, and if you keep them on cover, Daala will lose a trooper every time she kills one.
Is there something that can get into the commander area and cause chaos? Embo? Lord Kaan?
Playing before LowerHuttACon - we were finding that Snow Troopers did have a pretty strong advantage in most games if their opponent couldn't take out a few in one activation.
Pellaeon is key - if Daala squads didn't have Pellaeon they'd be much easier - access to tempo control and immunity to force powers is what pushes them to really tough IMO. Otherwise things like Force Repulse, Chain Lightning, and Unleash the Force would get them.
I do think TINT is on the money about there being two distinct Daala squads - Raxus and Snows - that take slightly different things to beat. It makes things much harder in terms of what to bring to a tournament. Mouse Wall doesn't work very well against Raxus, and Momaw doesn't work very well against Snow Troopers.
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thereisnotry wrote:Daala is a gatekeeper true, (not necessarily a horrible thing)...but the problem is that her counters have a very difficult time vs other squads.
Let's look at the 3 best Scissors squads:
Yobuck:
Lancer:
Arica:
Those are traditionally the 3 best Scissors squads. I'm not sure that Luke/Leia on Speeder won't rise to join them. Regardless, I think what you say illustrates that there aren't a lot of Scissors options. There haven't really needed to be, actually. Lancer and Yobuck made swarms Tier 2 at best for years, so why design anything Scissors-like when Paper is already torn to shreds. I think that's something that would be good to see going forward... Scissors-like pieces. Not uber-movement Scissors, but pieces who can consistently take out a handful of small pieces, but aren't so useful against bigger pieces. Momaw would be a good example, but other options would be good, too. -- Looking over the LowerHuttaCon results, there was another Daala squad that came in 9th. Lost to Celeste Morne & Savage Luke. Lost to Valenthyne and Lord Hoth. Beat a Vong squad.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Looking over the LowerHuttaCon results, there was another Daala squad that came in 9th. Lost to Celeste Morne & Savage Luke. Lost to Valenthyne and Lord Hoth. Beat a Vong squad. I wouldn't take too much from those LowerHuttACon Snow Trooper results: i) With Celeste Morne, I think that the Troopers should have bought Ozzel in. Then I think they would have been able to control the game better, and he should have been able to prevent Celeste making Rakghouls (Force Bubble helps a lot). ii) The Snowtroopers had put a lot of damage on the main OR pieces, just didn't take enough down. Oli said the Snow Troopers probably would have won in another round or two. If anything, they just show that you can win with careful play, and knowing how many points you have. I don't think they say much about those specific matchups. Having said that, Rakghouls are potentially a good counter for Trooper swarms. Rakghoul Warriors are good, since they can make Rakghouls without a force power.
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Matchups are key. The Daala squads have been lucky to avoid the counters so far.
In MI Luke and Leia on Speeder beat Daala and then the Daala squad avoids them in the finals. The Daala squad avoids the lancer in the finals in PA.
It could very easily be people complaining about how the rebels are top tier now. A little luck on matchups and bad luck on the counters side has weighed the results in Daala's favor.
Is it a very strong squad? Of course.
But obviously it's going to beat a mostly Melee squad. As has been discussed, it's an extreme squad type.
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Another peice we could see return to prominence with the rise of Daala is the Jedi Seer. Not only is it a great counter to lancer's, but its a good against swarms. If the troopers don't get adjacent they have to deal with evade. Their built in movement breaker is also very nice.
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