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Deaths_Baine wrote:TJ deserves a lot of credit here, juggernaut is simply an amazing meta call, and what a well put together squad. that's awesome man. I think he should get to design a piece for the next set as well and have at the bottom designed by TJ, the man that knows the meta. TJ is a designer on set 11
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AndyHatton wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:TJ deserves a lot of credit here, juggernaut is simply an amazing meta call, and what a well put together squad. that's awesome man. I think he should get to design a piece for the next set as well and have at the bottom designed by TJ, the man that knows the meta. TJ is a designer on set 11 That's awesome. He should be a good one. But he deserves a card with that shout out on it lol
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010 Posts: 3,562 Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
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Deaths_Baine wrote:so boba won gencon and new Zealand correct? Yup - that's right! Quote:i guess double swap is.....better then we thought Quote:I am just not seeing how these squads do so well. They are a good squad if you have not faced it before. Anyone that use to play vs or with Aurra/Exar or played a lot of B&B now khow to use the mid round attack and having ozzel with a swap just seems like a bad idea to me. I'm slightly amazed by people questioning double swap's efficacy. It's an uber deep strike squad with tempo control, while with the potential to dominate Boba, it can also handle rock squads. I don't think it loses much to anything that it can outactivate, unless it's an extreme rock or a very well protected Bastila. And the version with Marn is very hard to outactivate, unless you've prepared for it. I think it was the top dog going in to GenCon after winning NZ Nationals; high activation Imperial double swap was the gatekeeper that people had to plan to beat. For example, I don't think there's a Fringe squad out there that can beat it (might be a different story with Aves). The two squads that beat double swap in the top 8 (Deri with high activation Seps with Spotter and Jim with high activation single swap with no Lobot) looked like they had specifically prepared for it. And TJ's Sith squad had bodyguard and damage reducing tricks, and it's probably good against the high activation squads that needed to counter Thrawn, so it's also a good meta call. The two Imperial Governor/Marn squads in the top 8 were very unlucky to draw the two counter squads in the first round of the top 8 - Tim got the high act Seps and Etienne got the high act Imperial single swap. Regardless, I think Imperial double swap was the squad to beat (I get a bit confused about terminology, so I'm not sure if gatekeeper is right - but if you don't have high enough acts or enough damage or CE negation, I think you lose against http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/160322/fat-boba-gencon-2015-7nth-place) I know there's a fuss about Boba - Boba fits that squad beautifully, as accurate shot compounds the issues with an uber deep strike squad, as it's almost impossible to protect commanders against him. But I think Imperial double swap is so strong that if there was no Boba AfH in the game, I'd try and make it work with Cad Bane, or Morrigan with Jarael, Boba Merc, or Sugi, or whatever. But I think the Imperial Governor deepstrike pushes the game towards high activations, and generally provides an NPE (losing the foundation of your squad in the first round) and it needs to be looked at by the balance team. Congratulations to Jim for figuring out the meta and a really good counter to it!
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Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member Groups: Member
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Well said
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Mando wrote:AndyHatton wrote:Vergere does not make the cut to be a core part on all of them, but she is in it a lot for Force Spirit 4/Crab Armor
Ok... Juggernaut means it's the super Tanky bodyguard version Out of the Caedus+Bariss squads, the version with the Juggernaut is my favorite. Glad to see it did so well in this meta! It is a extremely nasty tank squad to have to deal with, and a good call vs Boba, since Draw Fire + SS is awesome vs Accurate shooting boba. You should like it... I ran your version. Dropped R7/ug for the squib trader.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:TJ deserves a lot of credit here, juggernaut is simply an amazing meta call, and what a well put together squad. that's awesome man. I think he should get to design a piece for the next set as well and have at the bottom designed by TJ, the man that knows the meta. Thanks, but it wasn't a meta call. It's just the squad I worked on all year. It has a bunch of auto losses, and Ysalamiri is one. I might have had a chance against atm's double swap since he didn't have Pellaeon. I made a really bad move against Jim that ended the game. I almost said 'cost' me the game, but that was Jim's game to lose from the outset. Sorry to anyone who sees the video of the finals... A bad match up that I then played badly probably makes it hard to watch. The game against tint though was epic. I'd like a video of that one. 202-180 or something like that.
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But you do have a bunch of versions of it, and you picked this one! Which I suggested. For Boba
Me.
So I want to take like .5% of the credit if that's cool ;)
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please link any video footage please. Also, could one of you post what the vong squad was made of? it didn't make top 8 but I am fascinated with vong builds. especially GenCon ones :)
Thanks
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So after thinking about it a bunch (way after the fact), if I played the finals completely differently I think I might have had a chance. I still would have been at a disadvantage, but it could have been a 25-30% chance anyway, I think. I'll write out the details later when I'm not on a phone.
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how would jar jar end up doing against the single swap boba squads?
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theultrastar wrote:Just got a new update. 22 gamers playing today in the champs. What's this compared to last year's numbers?
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trappedslider wrote:theultrastar wrote:Just got a new update. 22 gamers playing today in the champs. What's this compared to last year's numbers? It's down a little. I want to say we had 26 last year.
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22 is still a great turnout.
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First, congratulations to Jim on winning. Second, the field was a nice size and stacked with great players...just look at the span of players and where many former winners finished in the bottom half. Third, the winning squad is no fun to play against and the game is a slog in that match-up.
I finished in 11th with 8 points (2 3-point wins - vs. Weeks and Greg and 1 point losses to Jim and Joe (I think,) with my only bad loss coming to Trevor. I played Grievous Wheel, San, Gha, R7, 4 Snipers, 1 Spotter, 17 point Geonosian (with Cannon,) BDO, and some mice for CE spread. No matter what I gave the spotters 2 attacks, even if I dismounted (which I did not all day.) Never won map roll (0 for 5,) and never hit RESERVES.
Playing Jim in last game with 7 points I knew I needed a 3-point win (and he needed to win to advance as he had 8 points.) Realized quickly it would be a slog and not enjoyable in the least. It was exactly the same feeling I had years back when some ran zillion activation Sep. squads with San, piles of mice and IG-86's and would just out-activate you and then shoot the hell out of you. For many squads these are auto losses which is a real shame. It is a waste of time to play a game you have no chance to win as there is no strategy that can win.
I had 1 R7 and he had 2, and he would lock up doors no matter where I tried to advance and come to him. Until the end, I was up 7 rounds of gambit to 1 and was all over his map (Bothan Spynet.) I wheeled everywhere, but would not and could not leave it exposed to a swap late and triple and then init. win and kill it. Finally, after I had wheeled all the way just down the corridor of his Mas and Thrawn with every other square occupied by mice, I decided to go all the way back to gambit and not give up a 3-point win. It worked, I lost 2-1 but was a shame my only satisfaction could be found in depriving one of a full win.
I'd do it again however even though I think this is not what miniatures should be about (I used San, also not fun and am sure people playing against me felt the same as I did in this recounting of our game,) as you've got to find pleasure when possible ;) I now feel huge activation squads are not fun or run to play against...mostly if they are played one at a time. I mean the game between ATM and Jim in final 8 was like 30 something to 20 something when time was called I believe. That should not be what a game should look like and I am sure it was not fun for either player -- although some might think it was a thing of beauty tantamount to two great defenses shutting the others offenses down.
Regardless of all, I had a lot of fun as always at Gen-Con. My event I started (Death Race,) was well received and we sold 17 of 18 slots -- most all to players that had never played minis before. Everyone had fun and 2 of 3 races finished right at the 2 hour mark with the other one just being about 15 minutes before that.
Special thanks as always to James for setting up and being our Star Wars Godfather 2.0 and leading the way with all the planning and time. Thanks to everyone that helped and was very kind to new players and encouraging to them no matter their skill level. We had a lot of players come and play that had played years before and were so encouraged that we were still playing they were reinvigorated and interest was rekindled in our game. Thanks to Chris Flores for helping me run my game, he really made it possible to play quickly with 6 people and make sure it finished in 2 hours allotted. Again, Jim congratulations on winning to title - love it when good people win and new people to boot.
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TheHutts wrote: Jim was running high activation single Imperial swap, Thrawn Mas Boba Pellaeon Gha Nacht Ozzel R7 X 2 Wuher Rodian Brutes X 3 Amanin Scout Mouse X 13 yep, no MSD problems here...... move along......nothing to see
Jason's the Echani specialist.
except in '12 when I took them to the top 8
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FlyingArrow wrote:So after thinking about it a bunch (way after the fact), if I played the finals completely differently I think I might have had a chance. I still would have been at a disadvantage, but it could have been a 25-30% chance anyway, I think. I'll write out the details later when I'm not on a phone. --Dance of Death: UberTank (2nd place GenCon 2015)-- 54 Darth Caedus, Sith Lord 49 Juggernaut 31 Barriss Offee, Rogue Jedi 30 Vergere 14 Exar Kun, Dark Force Spirit 11 Freedon Nadd, Dark Force Spirit 10 Squib Trader (199pts. 7 activations) There's one big trick to the Dance of Death squad(s). Build force, then use SBM to move everyone around Barriss to trigger Mines (which triggers on involuntary movement). If there's a pit nearby, even better. Barriss typically dies after one round of doing that, but hopefully it does enough damage that Caedus can finish off the rest - which can be tricky because he drains virtually all of his Force points on SBM/Aing Tii. Against Vong, give Barriss one of the ghosts, keep the BG and Vergere alive to tank, and hope for the best. Against Ysalamiri, I had the strategy of just going after Talon/Pellaeon. It's a tough match-up no matter what, but I think it would have been better to instead just tank and treat it like a Vong opponent - where there's no hope of using SBM at all. I lost the finals risking everything to chase Pellaeon with Caedus. Jim played it well... he hung Pellaeon out there as bait and I jumped at it. I ran Caedus into the bubble without the bodyguard and with no defense against the attacks coming at him. He bet Pellaeon would survive until Caedus was defeated. A pretty safe bet for him. At the time my mindset was 'kill Pellaeon or have no chance.' I think keeping all 4 together (Barriss, Juggernaut, Caedus, Vergere) would have been a better move, though. By doing that, at least all the damage for everyone would initially go through the Juggernaut's 2 armor saves. If I had taken that route, I think I might have had a 25-30% chance. Slowly eat up his activations while moving across the board. Or just tank in gambit and hope for the rolls to go in my favor. I could gain gambit every round and each round kill his gambit-getter. If the Soresu/armor saves are strong enough and Vergere stays alive, the Juggernaut might end up with only about 10-20 net damage per round while the other are full health. Everyone else drops very quickly once the Juggernaut dies, though. Still not much of a chance for me, but better than what I ended up doing, which was almost certainly not going to work. Congratulations to Jim! He had the better squad for the match-up and he played it flawlessly.
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Thanks to everyone for the congratulations, first of all. I will probably do a write up in a day or so, but I want to address some comments on the meta. First, when I was asked to be on the balance committee I made a small push to get the mouse fixed before GenCon. It is true that I hadn't seen the mouse as an issue, but in fairness that statement was made early in the regional season. The 10 mouse dump made a comeback and it was once again like years ago by the end of the regional season. I didn't get much support on a pre-GenCon change, and in retrospect, I agree with that thinking now. We don't want to be doing knee-jerk reactions to a serious issue. So...at that point, what can I do to help the issue? Become part of the problem. Amplify it. I know how to play in this meta...I know what I'm doing with Imperial single-swap, which is what I ran. I found a way to exploit the meta by using Wuher without Lobot and hosing anyone using Lobot for 10 mouse dumps and Marn for stealing activations. The only one who outactivated me all day was Deri, and he beat the crap out of me. Single swap Imperial, like double swap, has to outactivate. Well, I'd like to explore lower activation double swap squads at some point, but I know single swap has no chance. Had Deri beaten Tj we'd be talking about his squad. As far as baiting Tj with Pellaeon, he's right...that's exactly what I did. He beat my Talon squad last year by basing Talon and killing him with Caedus. I thought he might go for that same strategy, which won't work against Imperials. (Well, there is one way, but the Imperial player has to make a mistake and allow Tj to go first and the TJ Ang-ti's.) Aside from that, Caedus at best does 50 to Pellaeon with cunning and a crit. I swapped Boba for Pellaeon, did damage to Caedus with smaller stuff, and finished Caedus off with Boba and combined fire. If I don't, I've got Pellaeon where he's still affecting Caedus but can't be reached.
As to what Mike Giles said, he's spot on. It's the same with his squad, while he may take shots mid round he pounds at the end after outactivating. Neither squad is fun to play against when you are outactivated. That is the problem with this current meta. I'll be honest, my squad isn't much fun to play with, either. Some of you can attest to the fact that I told a few of you before this tournament that I was running this squad to prove a point about the meta so that we can address it. I don't believe Boba is the issue...he's good, the best shooter in the game, but I could go with Cad and hammer in the mirror match. Cad or Boba are both good in this squad. The issue as I see it is activations. We have to find a way to make lower activation squads viable. We tossed a few ideas around at GenCon, and it would be great in the wake of the 2 most important tournaments in the the world, the GenCon championship and the New Zealand championship, that we all work together in a positive way to make it all more fun. It is a game, after all.
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