That's not community input, that's community creation. Trust me, it is a BAD idea. SWCCG has tried community created cards twice. It was only for 3 cards total. It was a disaster. And with this community? Forget it. Based on the pieces we've seen, I think the designers will earn your trust with this set.

Well, I would use Exar, if I had the figure. And I'm in favor of the Exar mini being used to represent Exar Kun Force Spirit. Anakin FS would be a better option than Yoda FS for a substitute, but only because Anakin happens to be more similiar in body to Exar than Yoda. Neither Yoda nor Anakin is Exar Kun and so they would fail in principle for the same reason, IMO it would feel wrong whether Anakin or Yoda was used.

This goes along with what I said earlier, that opening up the design process to the entire community would cause the entire project to stall out and never be done. There is absolutely no way to please absolutely everybody in the community with every single piece, and there would be some people who would never back down in an effort to compromise.

Some of you can call us elitists - and it may even be true, lol - but one thing you cannot say is that we are all chummy guys walking in step at every turn. The three of us - as well as the playtesters - have had some heated BUT very civil disagreements. fingersandteeth once called me his "archnemesis" in regards to a different discussion, but yet we still work together and find balance and compromise on this. Because we know we can't disagree forever, and more importantly, because we both want the same thing for this set - for people to play it and have fun doing so. There's no money in this for us. There's no opportunity, nothing to put on a resume´, and nothing at all whatsoever to be gained other than the joy of serving the community by designing these stats.

I hope the majority of people trust that even if there are disappointments with this set, that the group of people who worked on them - from the designers to the playtesters to the guys who did the graphic design and distributed the cards - all did so with the best intentions at heart. :)

I for one, believe this is how the majority of people view this effort.

I can't wait to see the set as a whole. What we've seen so far is great.

Thanks guys!

Dennis mentioned some of the heated discussions amongst the design team, and I thought I'd toss out this anecdote as well, as it actually applies pretty well in this instance.


I VERY much disagreed (and still do to some point) about the use of the Shadow Stormtrooper for the Mando CIO. In the end, it really had absolutely no bearing on me personally whatsoever, because I like painting/customizing, so I'll just paint up another Mando in black anyways. But I very heavily suggested using one of the other Mando minis instead, and likely one like the Soldier or potentially the Captain (people could use their promo versions of the Captain). Honestly, my main reason for the argument? I wouldn't want Stormtroopers in my Mando squad because of the total lack of theme there. Not only do the Stormies not match, but Mandos hated the Empire for strip-mining Mandalore during the Dark Times.

Ultimately, it wasn't my decision, and the guys on the design team did what they felt was best for the community and for the rest of the V Set. There were a TON of reasons behind why they chose that particular piece. My particular reasoning was just one of the many pros/cons.

So, the key thing to remember, is that even amongst the design team and the play-testers, not everybody agrees, but ultimately, somebody has to make a decision. And the key thing, for us to exist and live on as a community, is for those of us who lose those arguments to be peaceful about it, accept the differences, and move on. :)

@Rogue

yay! not much stopping you from playing. I hear you can get boosters cheap these days. :)

I'm looking forward to seeing some of the customs people come up with once all the info is released.

Well i was told that all you need is a reconizable custom or the recomended mini to make the v-set legal during the 2 times it will come up. I hear where you are coming from, but you do have an option to make what ever fig you want legal. you could melt a fig to look like a big pile of poo and paint it black and say it is what you think a dark force spirit would look like. I know that is a childish thing to say honestly the same can be said for where this thread is going. I personally was exited to see 5 new figs come out. I also have issues with them but non of them to me even come close to the Lobot, Gha Naght, Mouse droid combo that is plague to the game. If you really think that your arguement is good for the game to move forward in a positive way that keep it going. Otherwise please say thanks fellows for making some new legal figs i have issues with them but i can see you really are giving it a valiant effort. I will end my ramble now

Quick guys, what's the point of playing minis again?

To have fun.

I would rather be able to help design the new pieces than have to wait and see what comes out. But any unhappiness from not being directly involved is greatly surpassed by happiness at getting new pieces and a still-alive game. It won't be perfect, people will get upset, and a few years in we'll probably all look at the power curve and decide to redo some things. But that whole time, we'll still have minis! The alternative is no alternative at all.

Having said that, it would be nice if some people would not cast judgment on an entire community of their fellow players because of the posts of two or three of them. We know you are investing a lot of time into this. That's why we care so much, and want to help. This criticism is not personal.

First off, I apologize for blowing everyhitng out of proportion. Regardless of what I thought I saw repeating itself from the SWCCGPC, that was totally out of line. I'd like to thank LoboStele and Sithborg for being the ones to really try to attempt to get at the issues, and giving some insight into the reasoning for some of the decisions. I especially apologize for sensationalizing Lobo's comments.

However, I think there's some things that need to be said.

I make one suggestion, giving reasons for why I think my suggestion is a good idea, and Billiv accuses me of wanting my every whim satisfied and threatens to withhold previews because I was trying to make a suggestion for (what I think is) a postive change while there still is time. Boris paints me to be wanting a hand in the design of all 60 pieces. From the beginning over at Gamers, my request has been to involve the community in the design of just a few, even one piece, and the next statements therefrom are invariably calling for the need to keep it simple and that not everyone is going to be made happy so there's no point in involving anyone. Sure, I was wrong in assuming that this was the opportunity for input that I asked for. No one ever promised that to me or anyone else, so I should not have assumed. Then Dnemiller comes on and accuses me of bickering and giving the old with us or against us spiel, and says that if we don't like what he does, we should just ignore him. How is that any kind of attitude for a community leader to have? When I suggested that community input might help in the design of a limited number of pieces, I was accused of thinking that I alone could do better than the whole design team. Somehow it's not acceptable for me to be so "arrogant" to suggest that a few people outside the design team might have some good ideas, but it's acceptable to say that the people on the design team have already thought of every good idea that could have been relevant.
How are any of those things fair to me, to anyone else, or beneficial to anything?



I have been throwing tons of ideas out there, and they always get the smae old "How dare you think you can do better"-type responses. While admittedly I only spent 10-12 hours total compiling that list of figure requests (which is about equal to two weeks worth of baseball watching, so it wasn't a major disruption of my life), if there was something else I could have done to help, all that needed to have been done was to ask. How (reasonably) can you accuse me of not caring when I get upset when I am told that because I had some constructive criticism 1. Previews will be withheld if I have that attitude. 2. I was told simply that the design team considered it but said no (until Sithborg came in there was 0 actual justification) 3. That my minor suggestion is equivalent to wanting to design the whole set myself and that I want my every whim satisified because I have an opinion.

Is that really the best way to handle this? To paint community suggestions as demands for satisfaction or else? I have repeatedly jsut asked for some discussion, some justification and clarification, and all I get are accusations that I want to be the boss. Never on this issue, not once dnemiller, have I seen you have anything other than a "like it or leave" attitude. Is that really the attitude you should have as the leader of this venture? Shouldn't you be trying to solve the issues and help explain? If you don;t have the time or energy I get it, but maybe you need someone to help you out as a PR person or something, so you don't need to tell people to take a hike just because they want to help and think it should be or could been done different that how you have said.

Community input past the character selection stage can be as simple as: "We have chosen X piece to create. Please list here in this thread some ideas you have for the piece. We cannot guarantee that we will use any of these ideas, but who knows? Thanks for your input."

I understand if my past comments in these two threads have destroyed any credibility that I may have ever had. I regret that and am sorry. But please tell everyone what is wrong with that idea that I have above, instead of accusing me of having a my-way-or-the-highway attitude or thinking that I should be the one designing everything. I think I have a legitimate question, and I think it deserves consideration, regardless of whether it came from me or not. I have wanted it to have consideration for a long time, but the only responses that have come have all been similar in attitude to suggesting that I believe my opinion is the only one that matters.

At this point, this thread has outlived its usefulness. I forget when the actual topic was discussed. If you have issues with those involved in the design process, please take to gamers or PM, as I am quite tired of it.