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kezzamachine wrote:Sthlrd2 wrote:The thing I'm still seeing over all this is still a very constricted meta. Play Daala or play Hate. Count me out, I don't want to relive the days of snowspeeder (and that's still before I was fully competative). I played a fun squad at GC that year knowing it would lose and guess what, it still wasn't fun seeing the same stuff every round and do almost the same exact thing. I for one have no interest in playing in that kind of meta, because when it all comes down, this is still a game, and thus should still be fun. Well said, but don't fret - that is what this is all about! No one wants to see Daala or Daala Hate. But if we kneejerk react, we might mess something up. For all her possible harm, Daala has mean that you can build a non-Thrawn squad - that is special. We need to accurately address the problem with as much testing and discussion as possible so we can make the best change so that the game continues in the positive way that it has done since forever! Someone who didn't know the game asked me today how many banned characters we have and in around 1500 pieces I was proud to say none! What an amazing game we have. Have heart, everyone. We, as a community used to bulls-eye problem like this in our T16s back home. I love that we are still playtesting Vset 6, all of these months after it's release.
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Dropping Prideful (or making it commanders only) would be a better "fix" than dropping the +10 on Charging Fire. Without Prideful, Snowtroopers max out at +16 (and it's expensive in commanders) and Raxus Primes at +9. Either could get a +4 reroll with Needa. With those attack values they are still viable but deep strikes will fail sometimes and Snowtroopers are no longer able to hit everything all the time. High def squads will at least be a challenge for them. Give Daala Rival-Thrawn if it's a must that she be a Thrawn alternative.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Dropping Prideful (or making it commanders only) would be a better "fix" than dropping the +10 on Charging Fire. Without Prideful, Snowtroopers max out at +16 (and it's expensive in commanders) and Raxus Primes at +9. Either could get a +4 reroll with Needa. With those attack values they are still viable but deep strikes will fail sometimes and Snowtroopers are no longer able to hit everything all the time. High def squads will at least be a challenge for them. Give Daala Rival-Thrawn if it's a must that she be a Thrawn alternative. Good suggestion. Paper squads cannot have high attacks, or else we get into trouble.
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And lets not forget an important (yet not strictly minis related) point..
In the movies... STORMTROOPERS never shoot STRAIGHT.....!
hence, +20 sounds a bit ludicrous ;)
*trying to lighten the atmosphere a little ;)
I'm relatively new to the game and strategies as I don't play as often as some... but, i miss the running up and bashing each other with lightsabers days.. :)
Rich
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We are putting a lot of stock in looking at results of tournaments this coming weekend. I think it is likely that we won't see much of Daala. Who wants to put time and effort into a squad that will likely be nerfed by changes to key cards? I think it is more likely, at least at FrostyCon, that a few players will get together and play a number of games on the side. Of course at Hamilcon the caveat will be that the build total is 222. I think we should be considering the results the New Zealand group has gathered so far and the opinions they've expressed. I know that we are already doing that to some degree but all I'm saying is not to expect any great new revelations this weekend.
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Bringing a Daala squad to Frosty Con had crossed my mind at one point but I decided against it. I don't feel like it would be all that gratifying if I was to win with it. That being said I have figured for the past week or so that somebody will probably bring one. And although I'm not planning on bringing a Daala hate squad the possibility of seeing it has had an impact on what I've been considering. I'm sure that some people will ignore her in favor of running something new or what they want.
A few of the guys coming aren't playing X-Wing so a possibility remains that they could get some worthwhile play testing in to kill some time that day.
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Darth_Jim wrote:We are putting a lot of stock in looking at results of tournaments this coming weekend. I think it is likely that we won't see much of Daala. Who wants to put time and effort into a squad that will likely be nerfed by changes to key cards? I think it is more likely, at least at FrostyCon, that a few players will get together and play a number of games on the side. Of course at Hamilcon the caveat will be that the build total is 222. I think we should be considering the results the New Zealand group has gathered so far and the opinions they've expressed. I know that we are already doing that to some degree but all I'm saying is not to expect any great new revelations this weekend. True, but I think we are looking for confirmation of what the NZ group has found.
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Galactic Funk wrote:Bringing a Daala squad to Frosty Con had crossed my mind at one point but I decided against it. I don't feel like it would be all that gratifying if I was to win with it. That being said I have figured for the past week or so that somebody will probably bring one. And although I'm not planning on bringing a Daala hate squad the possibility of seeing it has had an impact on what I've been considering. I'm sure that some people will ignore her in favor of running something new or what they want. If you win convincingly enough to get Daala nerfed/banned, then you not only win the tournament... it means you beat the GAME. Go for it!
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Galactic Funk wrote:Bringing a Daala squad to Frosty Con had crossed my mind at one point but I decided against it. I don't feel like it would be all that gratifying if I was to win with it. That being said I have figured for the past week or so that somebody will probably bring one. And although I'm not planning on bringing a Daala hate squad the possibility of seeing it has had an impact on what I've been considering. I'm sure that some people will ignore her in favor of running something new or what they want.
A few of the guys coming aren't playing X-Wing so a possibility remains that they could get some worthwhile play testing in to kill some time that day. I'd encourage you to bring the Daala squad and see how it does. If a competent player doesn't bring her to Frostycon, then I'm afraid that this whole issue of Daala will go nowhere to creating a fix. If she enters the torunament and stomps over every singe other top squad at the tournament (which will be attended by many of the top players in the US i've heard) then I think we have proved that something needs to be errata'd. I'm afraid that with all this talk of Daala squads being unbeatable will cause most people to just bring something else and not give into the hype. We need the top players in the US to bring this squad to the tournament to prove something for the good of the game. We need to see the results from multiplebig tournaments to prove that she (or other things in that squad i.e zygerian slaver or Snowtrooper officer) need to be fixed to prevent another situation like era of GOWK or the Rebel Snowspeeder squads from happening again. So I understand if you don't want to play her, and you don't nessesarily need to do it, but I would like to see a top player bring her and prove again just like the NZ group has that she is a problem and is consistently beating the top squads.
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I'm going to Frosty Con to have fun and running a Daala variant sounds less and less fun all the time. But that's just me. Like I said, I believe someone will bring a Daala squad.
If Frosty Con ended up Daala or Daala Hate squads then that is a worthless test. You have to have variety to see how things matchup.
In the event that nobody brings a Daala squad wouldn't that also speak volumes about what the community thinks about her?
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Galactic Funk wrote:In the event that nobody brings a Daala squad wouldn't that also speak volumes about what the community thinks about her? Perhaps. I think my opinion of her is already quite clear, as is that of many others. But if nobody brought Daala it would also amount to us burying our head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away on its own.
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Oh and btw Mando, everyone going to Frosty Con is a competent SWM player. If she shows up it will be plenty ingotmative. And like I said before, at least 3 people going for SWM will have Saturday during the day to get some meaningful games in and at least one of them already mentioned doing some analysis then.
We shall see what happens.
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thereisnotry wrote:Galactic Funk wrote:In the event that nobody brings a Daala squad wouldn't that also speak volumes about what the community thinks about her? Perhaps. I think my opinion of her is already quite clear, as is that of many others. But if nobody brought Daala it would also amount to us burying our head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away on its own. From my perspective though I'm not going to make an 11+ hour drive each way just to play her so that everyone not coming has a chance to armchair theorize after the fact. I'm there to have a good time.
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Galactic Funk wrote:thereisnotry wrote:Galactic Funk wrote:In the event that nobody brings a Daala squad wouldn't that also speak volumes about what the community thinks about her? Perhaps. I think my opinion of her is already quite clear, as is that of many others. But if nobody brought Daala it would also amount to us burying our head in the sand and hoping the problem will go away on its own. From my perspective though I'm not going to make an 11+ hour drive each way just to play her so that everyone not coming has a chance to armchair theorize after the fact. I'm there to have a good time. 11 hours? Wow. That's awesome! I think my drive is 6 or 7 hours (depending on weather). But yeah, I hear ya: driving 22 hours just to playtest is a bad idea. I'm there for a good time too. And whenever something is at Gerry's house, it's always a good time! In fact, part of me wants to have a gentlemen's agreement that nobody will play Daala for the 200pt event. I had a pretty competitive squad that I would've enjoyed playing, until I realized how badly Daala would destroy it. Honestly, part of me just wants to throw down the Ban-Hammer on both Daala and the Slaver, and be done with it. The meta was a thing of beauty until Daala ruined it. And also, if we are going to go the Errata route, then I hope the erratas are strong enough to restore the meta that we had before. Errata that only goes halfway is a failure; I'd honestly rather make the errata too hard on her, than too soft. I don't want to have to change my entire squad choices just because of 1 or 2 pieces. I just found out that I can attend Gencon this year (  ) but if it's going to be another restricted meta like the Rebel-Snowspeeder-on-Teth in 2009, then I'll just save myself the headache (and the cost!) and stay home.
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The GOWK problem was a figure problem. If you all remember, we wanted errata, but the only option was ban or not ban. The Snowspeeder on Teth/Taris issue was a map issue. It wasn't a result of banning GOWK. It was going to be present regardless of GOWK that year. We also had pretty detailed information on it. We saw GOWK and very limited GOWK hate dominating regionals all season. We do not have that information on Daala.
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With the relatively small group of competitive players, you could actually shame her into the cornfield. I know back during the Boba-BH age, shaming worked.
Nasty Daala might just be a ban without a ban character.
/Wishfulthinking.
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thereisnotry wrote:
And also, if we are going to go the Errata route, then I hope the erratas are strong enough to restore the meta that we had before. Errata that only goes halfway is a failure; I'd honestly rather make the errata too hard on her, than too soft. I don't want to have to change my entire squad choices just because of 1 or 2 pieces.
+1 Sure the ultimate goal is to errata to the point where Daala squads can still compete, and exactly the same amount of people run Daala as any other squad, and we keep a wide open meta that Daala is now a part of and still in the hunt but not totally dominant. Easier said than done. Going too light on Errata will do little to nothing, and our Meta is still ruined. Going to hard will hate her out, but that's a better alternative.
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There should be plenty of time, for those of us not playing X-Wing, to test Dalaa.
I think it would be more telling if a "fun" player did well regularly against some of the more competitive players, using a Big D squad.
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Galactic Funk wrote:Oh and btw Mando, everyone going to Frosty Con is a competent SWM player. If she shows up it will be plenty ingotmative. And like I said before, at least 3 people going for SWM will have Saturday during the day to get some meaningful games in and at least one of them already mentioned doing some analysis then.
We shall see what happens. In my post I did state that many of the players going to the tournament were top players in the US. Sorry I didn't specify that tournament clearly, i just thought it was implied since I was talking about that tournament in the begining. Many going to it are the top players in the US, so it should be a good tournament. Everyone there is definetely competent. I just would like to see how well a Daala squad does against what others are bringing. I'm going to agree with thereisnotry and think we probably need a ban on her since she has ruined our meta that has been the best it has in many years. I love how many squads there are that a person can bring and do well with. I'd hate to see all those squads get stomped by the obvious mismatch Daala squads bring to the table.
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I'm actually happy for the spirited debate. It shows minis are still alive and well and we care about the game. Yes, let's see with the around the corner tournaments and playtests what people think about the Daala stuff. We do need to address it soon however as Michigan's regional is in a month I think.
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