@sharron, I was on the PTCom for V6. It was ridiculous. Their was so much garbage, that the few active members of the PTCom had to look at. And yes I would call this playtesting because that's exactly what is being asked for, unless you have another reason that tests with the Zygerian are being called for.

You are absolutely right though, 72 characters is extremely hard to playtest. Especially when it's only 2 to 3 guys doing it. No argument here. It's even worse when you can't chat with the designer and voice your concerns and say "Hey man, this is what I'm seeing what do you think?" and just talk about it, and get a decent stat block to playtest. Instead you get "Well prove it in a playtest."

I don't need to prove it in a playtest! I can take one look at that stat block and tell you it's bunk! If only you all could have seen the original vehicles for V6. Or the original Kyp Durron. Instead the designers wanted us to waste an hour per game, with their crap stat blocks that could have EASILY been fixed just through listening to pure, simple, reasoning.

I think the real question is how powerful a fully operational Daala squad is?

Is it better than Luke's art class?
Is it better than NPE extreme?
Is it better than squad x?

And I don't mean better in the sense can it beat it head to head (that is a different question). What I mean is, if I played Daala against say 8 squads (all top tier and all of different types rock, paper, scissors, hybrid, combo, etc) and then played another squad against those same 8 opponents, which would come out better? or would it be the same?

If Daala goes say 7-1 in those 8 matchups and Luke's art class goes 7-1 (which it did at Gencon) is Daala the problem or is Luke's art class? Or how about we compare it to NPE extreme which I believe also went 7-1 (only losing the finals) at gencon?


This is why we can't just look at Daala and what she does but we have to measure the relative power of her squads to the relative power of the other squads available to play. And I am really not certain how we effectively do that. As a community, we just don't play nearly as many games as we used to and we often use a squad for only 1 tournament before we move on to a different squad because we want to play something else.

The record isn't what matters. It's whether the other squad even stands a chance. Luke's Art Class won the whole thing, but he had some close matches. If Daala utterly stomps more than 3 or 4 out of the top 8, and at least has a chance against the others, then that's a problem.

It's done that way because that's the scientific method. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_burden_of_evidence

I do agree 72 characters and only 2-3 people actually playing the pieces made the system harder to work with.

The scientific-method argument works up to a point. But so does common sense; I think there should be room for honest gut-level feedback and discussion from playtesters. I know we're open to it as Designers for V-Set 8; we've already received several good suggestions (without playtests) and made some adjustments based on them.

But seriously--ultrastar, and anyone else who is using this situation as an excuse to point the blame-finger: please stop. Blaming and fault-finding helps nothing, unless you're trying to use someone else's mistakes to bolster your own reputation. [Coincidentally, dirty politicians do it all the time.] There are pieces that I haven't liked so far in V-Set history, but there's a difference between voicing your dislike of certain pieces and calling down blame and accusation against the people responsible for designing that piece. The first is legit and mature, while the other is quite simply childish.

Please, let's keep this thread on topic and brainstorm ways to address the imbalance that Daala and the Slaver have caused. And it's not all bad. If nothing else, this development in the meta has actually served to highlight the freedom and fun of an open meta that we've been enjoying for a couple of years now. In a way, it's one of those "you never know how great it is until it's threatened" kinds of things.

More brainstorming for the Zygerrian:

Slave Driver: (Replaces attacks; range 6, lower-cost ally takes 10 damage and is considered activated. It may move its speed.)

Now it's only useful for a deep strike if you win initiative, and not useful for 10hp pieces. Not useful to drive poggle bombs. Might still be abusive w/Naboo.

It would limit it, but 2 could plus charging fire could still get you 30 squares or so assuming it was still double speed or just 24 squares if it was only speed.

What reputation? Surely you are not referring to my sterling reputation here on Bloomilk. I do enjoy the reference to a dirty politician. That's quite the compliment. I feel more Sidious like by the minute. It's only a matter of time before I execute Order 66 and have designers wiped out in one swift stroke. And I will agree to stop pointing fingers if Daniel does.

PS. I instantly apologize for the wink. I may have come off as childish, and ruined my reputation.

What the hell, dude? It was literally just days ago that I was talking about how you were the best playtester we've had (ask Tim!). I've barely been involved in the discussion here, and my stance as far as pointing fingers is that it was EVERYONES fault who had access to the stats. Nobody caught it, it didn't get PTed. That isn't just your fault or my fault or Les's fault or Jake's fault or whoevers fault; it's the fault of everyone involved, including me and including you.

(Option A: Limit to touch... still range 36 with 2 Zygerrians and Flim)
Two Zygerrians and a trooper lined up.
1. Zygerrian A drives the trooper 12.
2. Via Flim, Zygerrian A drives Zygerrian B who was on his other side.
3. Zygerrian B moves 6 to catch up to the trooper and drives him 12.
4. Trooper charges 12.
(Maybe only range 34 or 35 so B and Trooper wind up adjacent before step 3.)

(Option B: Replaces turn... still range 36 with 3 Zygerrians)
Two Zygerrians and a trooper lined up.
1. Zygerrian A drives the trooper 12.
2. Zygerrian B drives Zygerrian C adjacent the trooper.
3. Zygerrian C drives the trooper 12.
4. Trooper charges 12.
(Again, maybe only range 34 or 35 so C and Trooper wind up adjacent before step 3.)

(Option C: Moving only speed instead of double speed... still range 30 with 3 Zygerrians)
1. Zygerrian drives Trooper
2. Zygerrian drives Trooper
3. Zygerrian moves 6 and drives Trooper
4. Trooper charges 12.

Zygerrians do very little damage. They're a problem when you're far away and can't reach the opponent's squad yet. By the time you're up in the teeth of a Daala squad, they're not such a big deal anymore. I'd attack the troopers first. They really don't even need to last more than a round or two. They only need to do their job once and it's devastating if they can reach a key piece. Depends on the squad, of course. Some squads don't have any 'key' piece.