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FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2014 12:14:23 PM
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Marn or Disra can bring a Buzz Droid, but can't bring in the LIN. The LIN isn't useless in the main squad, though, even if there isn't any strafe. It's really tough on melee, too. And even versus shooters, it's at least a roadblock that has to be shot up before getting to the troopers.

Yobuck will probably see a resurgence. He's only going to take an average of 40 damage from running past the LIN and the Buzz Droid does nothing. Well worth 40dmg to run after the rest of the squad. Of course, if the LIN blocks the key door, he's out of luck, though.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2014 2:38:41 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Marn or Disra can bring a Buzz Droid, but can't bring in the LIN. The LIN isn't useless in the main squad, though, even if there isn't any strafe. It's really tough on melee, too. And even versus shooters, it's at least a roadblock that has to be shot up before getting to the troopers.

Yobuck will probably see a resurgence. He's only going to take an average of 40 damage from running past the LIN and the Buzz Droid does nothing. Well worth 40dmg to run after the rest of the squad. Of course, if the LIN blocks the key door, he's out of luck, though.


Of course a LIN isn't useless vs anything other than strafe (I designed it, I would never call it useless!), but my point is that it's still weaker vs non-strafe than 2-4 more troopers would be.

You face strafe, you'll be glad you brought it. If not - you'll wish you had something else. Especially Daala vs Daala squads, where more activations usually win.
TheHutts
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2014 3:30:27 PM
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There are a lot of different options available to Daala squads, which means that Daala squads can look very different from each other. I normally lean towards including Pellaeon, and I've used him in my last two games; in my game against Daman's Raxus swarm, he was a waste of 16 points - I would have been much better with four Storm Troopers instead. But in my game against Darth Moore, Pellaeon bringing in Ozzel for GARY made the game very straightforward for me. He also is great for breaking down the tanks like Zannah and GOWK with Ysalamari. There are so many possible strong options out there, which allow adjustments to different metas, that I don't think we're ever going to see the precisely optimised Snow Trooper swarm emerge in the same way as we've seen with Roll the Bones for Naboo Pilots. I think there are enough tools out there to create a Daala squad that will be strong in any specific meta, but you can't cover every meta in one single squad.

Daala does feel like a gatekeeper, at the least, from my perspective, based on the success and prevalence I've seen in New Zealand so far. If I'm taking a squad to a tournament, it's got to be able to hold its own against Daala swarms. I guess we've got FrostyCon and HamilCon (NZ 222 point tournament) coming up in a couple of weeks, so we'll see how much of a splash Daala makes there.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Sunday, February 9, 2014 4:47:27 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
There are so many possible strong options out there, which allow adjustments to different metas, that I don't think we're ever going to see the precisely optimised Snow Trooper swarm emerge in the same way as we've seen with Roll the Bones for Naboo Pilots. I think there are enough tools out there to create a Daala squad that will be strong in any specific meta, but you can't cover every meta in one single squad.


Great point. There are so many commanders that are useful in a Daala squad...

Pellaeon - Force bubble plus flexibility
Veers - Gets through Stealth or Mice walls
New Veers - Cracks through GOWK/Zannah
Piett - Extra punch
GARY - Same as Piett, but harder to get Cunning bonus. Lower cost, a better shooter himself.
Ozzel - Almost (but not quite) guarantee Opportunist bonuses
Needa - Deep strike insurance
Flim - Deep strike extra punch
Disra - Lobot replacement and CE protection
Marn - Another option for Lobot replacement
Czerka (not quite an officer) - Twin snowtroopers have massive damage output for 4 points.
Stormtrooper Commander - Ideal for a deep strike
Snowtrooper Commander (if using Snowtroopers) - +8 Attack for Snowtroopers
Snowtrooper Officer (if using Snowtroopers) - Mandatory for Snowtroopers (Rapport)
Imperial Officer - Extra punch on a deep strike
Sandtrooper Officer (if using Sandtroopers) - Not a common build

Plus the tech of how much door control, how many Zygerrians (if any).

Of course you can't take all of it, but how much and which ones will vary from meta to meta. In one sense, less is better because you get more troopers the less tech/fewer commanders you take. At one extreme, more troopers is scary:

--Daala's Sheer Numbers--
27 Admiral Daala
13 Snowtrooper Commander
11 Snowtrooper Officer
8 Mas Amedda
8 Zygerrian Slaver
20 Raxus Prime Trooper x5
104 Snowtrooper x26
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

(200pts. 39 activations)

At the other end we have a toy squad with one incredibly boosted trooper (up to 320dmg per round... talk about a glass cannon!):

--One Nasty Imperial Navy Trooper--
27 Admiral Daala
20 Admiral Piett
16 Grand Admiral Rulf Yage
15 Flim
14 Stormtrooper Commander
13 Czerka Scientist
13 Imperial Officer
13 Stormtrooper Officer
11 Admiral Ozzel
11 Star Destroyer Officer
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
24 Zygerrian Slaver x3
5 Imperial Navy Trooper

(198pts. 16 activations)

Darth O
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:17:53 AM
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Daala will be the top 4 at GenCon. You heard it here first, folks!
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 9:45:56 AM
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Darth O wrote:
Daala will be the top 4 at GenCon. You heard it here first, folks!


All of the top 4, or at least 1 in the top 4?
thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:21:26 AM
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How effective will the various Lancer squads be vs a Daala swarm? The Lancers obviously have huge range, but they can't get everything...I figure that the Lancer will need to kill at least 8 troopers (Snow or Raxus) in order to even equal its cost. Now, I realize the purpose isn't just to get points, but to eliminate the damage-dealing potential of the troopers...but still, I'm curious to know if it will be enough to make a difference. But I don't know Lancer squads very well and so that's why I'm asking.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 11:56:54 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
How effective will the various Lancer squads be vs a Daala swarm? The Lancers obviously have huge range, but they can't get everything...I figure that the Lancer will need to kill at least 8 troopers (Snow or Raxus) in order to even equal its cost. Now, I realize the purpose isn't just to get points, but to eliminate the damage-dealing potential of the troopers...but still, I'm curious to know if it will be enough to make a difference. But I don't know Lancer squads very well and so that's why I'm asking.


The issue is that Daala squads outactivate many lancer squads. Single lancer turns pretty poopy when it's outactivated. Double lancer (no San Hill) can send one in on a suicide run, but depending on map, that's probably all it will get. There's usually enough hidey holes that lancers can't touch so enough troopers will survive to take out the second lancer. And now with LINs, if the Daala squad brings one it's a suicide risk for no return to attempt to fly over one. So they put it in just the right spot and the lancer is hosed.


The real issue with these squads is they out-activate virtually everything and they have an insane range. Zygerians are the core of the problem. They are very broken and will change the meta from now on.
Darth O
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:03:10 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth O wrote:
Daala will be the top 4 at GenCon. You heard it here first, folks!


All of the top 4, or at least 1 in the top 4?


Every single flipping place.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 12:47:52 PM
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Darth O wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth O wrote:
Daala will be the top 4 at GenCon. You heard it here first, folks!


All of the top 4, or at least 1 in the top 4?


Every single flipping place.


I would be a very large amount of money against this.

1 of the top 4? Sure. 2 - Maybe.

All 4 - No way
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 1:12:44 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
How effective will the various Lancer squads be vs a Daala swarm? The Lancers obviously have huge range, but they can't get everything...I figure that the Lancer will need to kill at least 8 troopers (Snow or Raxus) in order to even equal its cost. Now, I realize the purpose isn't just to get points, but to eliminate the damage-dealing potential of the troopers...but still, I'm curious to know if it will be enough to make a difference. But I don't know Lancer squads very well and so that's why I'm asking.


The issue is that Daala squads outactivate many lancer squads. Single lancer turns pretty poopy when it's outactivated. Double lancer (no San Hill) can send one in on a suicide run, but depending on map, that's probably all it will get. There's usually enough hidey holes that lancers can't touch so enough troopers will survive to take out the second lancer. And now with LINs, if the Daala squad brings one it's a suicide risk for no return to attempt to fly over one. So they put it in just the right spot and the lancer is hosed.


The real issue with these squads is they out-activate virtually everything and they have an insane range. Zygerians are the core of the problem. They are very broken and will change the meta from now on.


I don't think Daala will out-activate NPE Extreme. I guess she could. Daala will max out at 44 activations. That's just Daala, an ugnaught, and all Raxus Primes - 198pts. No other commanders or Zygerrians. Take Ozzel, and you're at 43 activations (add a 2nd ugnaught at 200 even). That's the max, which is almost certainly not the ideal build.

NPE Extreme gets to 35 activations with San Hill. From my builds, the highest number of activations I've reached with a Daala build I liked was 34 activations (no Ozzel) or 29 activations (with Ozzel).

Darth O
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 1:54:02 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth O wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth O wrote:
Daala will be the top 4 at GenCon. You heard it here first, folks!


All of the top 4, or at least 1 in the top 4?


Every single flipping place.


I would be a very large amount of money against this.

1 of the top 4? Sure. 2 - Maybe.

All 4 - No way


Out of interest, let's name 3 squads that can beat Daala. Yobuck, um, er, let's see, um.....
harryg
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 1:58:57 PM
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When it comes to out activating both have tempo control even though seps have it for a point cheaper, which could mean another drone. On another note, the Imps have Grand Moff Tarkin who can allow for a slave drive, slave drive, then charge for a 36 square range charge. With theoretically more range than a lancer in a phase, it will be interesting to see how many daala squads take tarkin.
thereisnotry
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:21:46 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Zygerians are the core of the problem. They are very broken and will change the meta from now on.
Right. They should allow a piece to move its speed, not double it's speed. That's the problem.
TheHutts
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 2:33:03 PM
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Darth O wrote:
Out of interest, let's name 3 squads that can beat Daala. Yobuck, um, er, let's see, um.....


As a recap, in New Zealand, the two single day tournaments we've seen since v-set 6 have only been 100 and 150 points - point levels where you'd expect Daala squads to be sub-optimal, as I think she starts to really hit her straps and become really nasty at 200.

At the Hutt100, a build with Daala and five Elite Scout Troopers won comfortably. The only tightish game was where Daala wasn't protected properly and an attacker got to her. I don't think she's too much of an issue at 100 - maybe one of the better builds out there, but not dominant.

At 150, in HaweraCon, we saw all 3 Daala builds in the field make the top 4; two Elite Scout Trooper builds, and one Snow Trooper build. The Snow Trooper build went on to win, despite only having 9 Snow Troopers - the 200 builds can squeeze a bunch more in. I played the less optimised of the two EST builds, and I had two very easy wins against good New Republic squads (like 150-15 in 15 minutes), a loss against another Daala squad, and a loss against a well played Republic squad with some ranged defense, which gives me the ignominy of being the only Daala squad to ever lose against a non-Daala squad in a ranked/competitive game in New Zealand. I think Daala squads are fairly strong at 150, but I think it's 200 points where they really start to dominate.

In 200, the Raxus Prime Trooper squads and Snow Trooper squads hit their stride and are very nasty, and it feels like only a small number of squads can hang in with them. In my last two competitive games; I got slaughtered by Dr Daman's build with 15 Raxus, Needa, Flim, and Zygerrians, then I easily dealt with last year's NZ Champion winning Thrawn/Cad Bane/Morrigan squad with a Snow Trooper swarm. We've also seen a Daala squad win the LBB Wisconsin tournament.

Hopefully there are some counter squads out there that people will discover - I think the Raxus swarm will beat a lot of things, including all the other Daala squads, but might struggle with rock squads. I guess we'll see how FrostyCon and HamilCon go, but I think Darth O is echoing a school of thought that a few New Zealand players are feeling that the meta is looking more constrained than it has for quite a while.
Darth O
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:04:33 PM
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Very insightful, TheHutts. Mace/GOWK might actually see a return; 26 defense means that the troopers need 13s to hit, or 17 if he's in cover.
harryg
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 3:07:01 PM
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^However the new veers is a GOWK counter. Although he'd have to be built into the main squad
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:05:01 PM
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harryg wrote:
^However the new veers is a GOWK counter. Although he'd have to be built into the main squad


Not with Pellaeon. Pick either Veers or Opportunist as needed.
kezzamachine
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 5:31:13 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth O wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Darth O wrote:
Daala will be the top 4 at GenCon. You heard it here first, folks!


All of the top 4, or at least 1 in the top 4?


Every single flipping place.


I would be a very large amount of money against this.

1 of the top 4? Sure. 2 - Maybe.

All 4 - No way


...This turned into a gambling site so much faster than I anticipated.
harryg
Posted: Monday, February 10, 2014 5:50:05 PM
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Totally forgot about pellaeon FlyingArrow. That will be a good counter to the likes of GOWK and Darth Zannah.
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