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Daala and Zygerian Errata Options
Deathwielded
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 7:41:54 AM
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I'm kinda disappointed that the Slave Driver SA was completely removed, I would have liked to see a much weaker and more balanced version. (replace turn and Touch even)

I completely Agree with Daala's changes.

Will we get the Boomilk Squad builder updated with these changes?
Sithborg
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 7:52:05 AM
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donnyrides wrote:
Did the CE get an edit so that enemy "Imperial Troopers" Can't use it?

Currently it reads: Imperial troopers gain Charging Fire +10.

Doesn't say allied or follower or enemy or anything. Just throwing that out there....


Yes, that will be part of the errata. It just isn't the part most are focusing on.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 7:55:58 AM
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komix wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
komix wrote:
Shouldn't the Daalas' cost change since she has been nerfed? Especially after seeing other pieces with prideful this set.

As of this moment I think that after changes she isn't worth those 27 points at all. And to think that You guys wanted to nerf her EVEN more...
Yeah let's just stick to all Thrawn squads in Imps ThumbDown Glare Cursing . I for one am pissed as hell. Imperials finally got something fresh and innovative when she came out (after the whole fiasco with Imperial Triumvirate)

Was she abusive with zygerrian slaver? yeah I won't lie she wasn't. But it was the combo of both zyg & daala.
Since zyg was nerfed as well why change daala?




If you can't see the issue of 4 pt Stormtroopers, as well as being able to grant +20 Dam, there is nothing I can say to you. Daala was a problem, and she would continue to be a problem for the rest of the game.


Same can be said about Poogle, Vset Windu (just throwing an examples here) and yet nothing was actually done about them. (I'm not counting No Disentegrations as a fix)



The main difference being, that those other example you cited are beatable and beatable by lots of different stuff. Had Daala been left as is, there is very little (a few hate squads and some hot rolling) that could have beaten her. It was on par with GOWK in his heyday.

There is a difference between a mistake that makes a piece/squad better than intended and one that pushes a piece/squad to be pretty much better than anything else. Mace/Poggle/most other v-set "mistakes" fall in the first camp while Daala and the Zyg fall in the second camp. Thus action was taken to fix it.

And I personally feel that Daala is certainly still competitive at the top levels. It's just now she doesn't win every game just by showing up.
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:07:55 AM
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jak wrote:
why the rehash?Blink

shouldn't we no the errata by now?Confused


FlyingArrow wrote:
Announced on SHNN.

Zygerrian loses Slave Driver.

Daala loses Rapport.
Daala's CE changes from Charging Fire +10 to Charging Fire.
pegolego
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:15:21 AM
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I wish Slave Driver could have been worked to still work on only >9 point pieces or whatever, and simply raised the cost of the Slaver fairly significantly. Completely removing the piece's prime mechanic is kinda sad. I can see how the errata was necessary, and I hadn't tested it much so there is probably some merit in the decision that I am missing, it's just kinda disappointing.

The fix on Daala herself looks pretty good.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:38:06 AM
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With the slaver, it came down to the super easy fix (lose slave driver) or a convoluted grand fix that would change multiple things, like:

Replaces turn instead of attacks,
AND
Touch instead of range 6,
AND
Lower cost characters instead of equal to or lower,
AND
Speed instead of double speed
AND
Fringe only

Note it likely would have to have been ALL 5 of these changes at once. And then we'd still be nervous about it being abused. It then becomes a Thrawn swap mechanic, which is funny since Daala is trying to weaken imperial Thrawn reliance.

That's not to mention other changes that just should have been in the first place, such as the slaver only having 10 hp.


So in the end it was a combo of when it comes to errata, simpler is better, AND better safe than sorry.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 8:39:08 AM
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I still disagree with Tim regarding the Daala/Zygerrian squad. In that squad, Daala was a bigger problem than the Zygerrian (though they both needed the errata they received so it's a moot point). However, as demonstrated by urbanjedi, the Zygerrian is equally broken in a swap squad, where the range becomes even greater with a swap. The problem there is that whatever you drive forward can be swapped, so there isn't really any fix. Driving stronger pieces (cost >9) would probably be an even bigger problem, and thematically wouldn't make much sense. Maybe if it were just changed to 2 square movement (instead of double speed) the flavor could have been kept, but in either case I don't think it will be seeing the table very much.

Removal of the ability is the cleanest solution. Also the easiest to un-do if somehow some version is later determined to be acceptable. The last thing we'd want to see is a different version of Slave Driver coming out every season if the first "fix" was deemed too weak. I want to see a usable version someday just because I went out and got an awesome LilyWan custom for the Zygerrian that I'd like to continue to use somehow. But for now this is the best solution.
swinefeld
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 9:16:47 AM
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komix wrote:
Shouldn't the Daalas' cost change since she has been nerfed? Especially after seeing other pieces with prideful this set.

As of this moment I think that after changes she isn't worth those 27 points at all.


Compare her with IE Xizor.

Not to mention, that would reduce the number of pieces that can get the Prideful boost, now and in the future.
Sithborg
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 9:32:34 AM
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Yeah, Prideful is a tricky ability to balance. It gets worse the cheaper the character is. Honestly, I'm not a fan of Prideful on her at 27 as is, because that still allows some powerful commanders, and that damage boost is very stackable.
komix
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:01:32 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
komix wrote:
Shouldn't the Daalas' cost change since she has been nerfed? Especially after seeing other pieces with prideful this set.

As of this moment I think that after changes she isn't worth those 27 points at all.


Compare her with IE Xizor.

Not to mention, that would reduce the number of pieces that can get the Prideful boost, now and in the future.


In her price range I've compared her with Arkanin Jedi General- for 3 points more OR gets a not only good commander (gives out GMA and increases CE range) with prideful but also a deacent fighter. When compared with Dalaa the imperial after recent errata looks like a joke.

I fully understand nerfing Zygerrian but nerfing a unique character should be done more classy so that the character after "update" would be worth its cost.
AndyHatton
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:11:59 AM
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But the OR can't get the crazy good OTHER trooper boosts that The Imperials have and Daala affects all imperals not just troopers.
juice man
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:16:02 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
With the slaver, it came down to the super easy fix (lose slave driver) or a convoluted grand fix that would change multiple things.
Wonder what would happen if Slave Driver made the piece driven a Slave?

Slave:This character has Savage and -2 Defense unless an allied commander is within 6 squares.

Right off the bat, it would make record keeping a pain. Maybe something to house rule just for S+Gs.

markedman247
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:39:36 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
With the slaver, it came down to the super easy fix (lose slave driver) or a convoluted grand fix that would change multiple things, like:

Replaces turn instead of attacks,
AND
Touch instead of range 6,
AND
Lower cost characters instead of equal to or lower,
AND
Speed instead of double speed
AND
Fringe only


You forgot to add "takes 10 damage" but I only saw it mentioned a couple of times.
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:40:37 AM
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komix wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
komix wrote:
Shouldn't the Daalas' cost change since she has been nerfed? Especially after seeing other pieces with prideful this set.

As of this moment I think that after changes she isn't worth those 27 points at all.


Compare her with IE Xizor.

Not to mention, that would reduce the number of pieces that can get the Prideful boost, now and in the future.


In her price range I've compared her with Arkanin Jedi General- for 3 points more OR gets a not only good commander (gives out GMA and increases CE range) with prideful but also a deacent fighter. When compared with Dalaa the imperial after recent errata looks like a joke.

I fully understand nerfing Zygerrian but nerfing a unique character should be done more classy so that the character after "update" would be worth its cost.
Comparing the AJG with Daala because of Prideful is just as pointless as comparing Thrawn with Revan because of Master Tactician. They are very different pieces, in very different factions, with very different purposes. In fact, I'm confident that an optimized Daala squad can still beat an optimized AJG squad 90% of the time. Charging Fire for troopers (especially cheap troopers that have easy access to a lot of damage boosters) is extremely good. Daala is still worth her points, no doubt of that. [Personally, I'm afraid that we didn't nerf her enough, but only time will tell.]
Galactic Funk
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 10:47:39 AM
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komix wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
komix wrote:
Shouldn't the Daalas' cost change since she has been nerfed? Especially after seeing other pieces with prideful this set.

As of this moment I think that after changes she isn't worth those 27 points at all.


Compare her with IE Xizor.

Not to mention, that would reduce the number of pieces that can get the Prideful boost, now and in the future.


In her price range I've compared her with Arkanin Jedi General- for 3 points more OR gets a not only good commander (gives out GMA and increases CE range) with prideful but also a deacent fighter. When compared with Dalaa the imperial after recent errata looks like a joke.

I fully understand nerfing Zygerrian but nerfing a unique character should be done more classy so that the character after "update" would be worth its cost.


Andy was first on this about the OR comments but it's worth reiterating. Those are 2 completely different scenarios you are comparing. Imperials have a ton of significant commanders that can be mixed and matched to pump out a lot of damage on top of what Daala does. The OR with the Arkanian has next to nothing to also boost grunts. Complete apples to oranges comparison.

I have to guess that you're comments are purely reactionary and that you haven't stopped to see how good Daala still is. Snowtroopers still have access to Rapport -2 as well as multiple attack and damage boosters. There are loads of different trooper options to put together. They can still be nasty. I also guess that you didn't realize just how overpowered she was previously.

EDIT: Looks like TINT got in before me echoing the same.
kezzamachine
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 11:00:41 AM
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komix wrote:
swinefeld wrote:
komix wrote:
Shouldn't the Daalas' cost change since she has been nerfed? Especially after seeing other pieces with prideful this set.

As of this moment I think that after changes she isn't worth those 27 points at all.


Compare her with IE Xizor.

Not to mention, that would reduce the number of pieces that can get the Prideful boost, now and in the future.


In her price range I've compared her with Arkanin Jedi General- for 3 points more OR gets a not only good commander (gives out GMA and increases CE range) with prideful but also a deacent fighter. When compared with Dalaa the imperial after recent errata looks like a joke.

I fully understand nerfing Zygerrian but nerfing a unique character should be done more classy so that the character after "update" would be worth its cost.


When you see changes like this, it can be difficult to get your head around it. I totally understand where you are coming from. But, give it time and play it - you will see that she is still monster-awesome and really hard to beat.

There has been a LOT of testing on this here in NZ and elsewhere. This change is good!
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 11:23:56 AM
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The way I see it is that the designers (and the community as a whole) WANT Daala to be a top tier squad. She still will be in my opinion.

There is a huge difference between top tier competitive and meta-warping dominance.

The concept of Daala (trying to break Thrawn reliance, helping trooper builds) is a noble one. We don't want to castrate it. As TINT said - it may not have been enough.

The nerf we gave her was rather light in all actuality. We removed rapport (which through admittance of the designers of that set - was never meant to stay on and slipped through the cracks). Rapport was probably gonna go no matter what. And we simply removed the extra 10 damage. Instead of optimal snowtroopers being able to hit for 50 (90 with a czerka), they can only hit for 40 (80 with a czerka). Really not that big of a deal. If anything, perhaps it wasn't changed enough. It blows my mind that anyone would think we made it so nobody will use her now. She'll still make a splash at some Regionals and maybe even GenCon.

The Zygerrian on the other hand - I think we all recognize that we virtually killed it. I'm ok with that. It wasn't a noble concept such as Daala. It was a poorly thought out ability that was easily abusable and basically only made squads that didn't need any help better.

Nobody was going around calling anything a "Zygerrian Slaver squad". Daala is a core to a squad concept, and that remains. Zygerrians were an overpowered cheap fringe non-unique tech piece. You can still run any squad you might have before with a Zygerrian, and any that was good before is still good. Killing Slave Driver doesn't squash whole squad concepts, it only takes away one broken tool to make those concepts better than they needed to be.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 11:34:38 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
The Zygerrian on the other hand - I think we all recognize that we virtually killed it. I'm ok with that. It wasn't a noble concept such as Daala. It was a poorly thought out ability that was easily abusable and basically only made squads that didn't need any help better.

Nobody was going around calling anything a "Zygerrian Slaver squad". Daala is a core to a squad concept, and that remains. Zygerrians were an overpowered cheap fringe non-unique tech piece. You can still run any squad you might have before with a Zygerrian, and any that was good before is still good. Killing Slave Driver doesn't squash whole squad concepts, it only takes away one broken tool to make those concepts better than they needed to be.


I'm glad the Zygerrian is gone, but it was the base of certain squad types. Pretty much kills the following squad. (Probably the Raxus Primes builds as well.) While I don't think it was the strongest Daala build, it was the a lot of fun to run, although not necessarily fun to face:

--Sandtrooper Deep Strike--
27 Admiral Daala
20 Admiral Piett
15 Flim
15 Security Officer Stormtrooper
14 Stormtrooper Commander
13 Imperial Officer
24 Elite Scout Trooper x2
11 Captain Needa
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
24 Zygerrian Slaver x3
14 Sandtrooper x2
4 Raxus Prime Trooper
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 18 activations)
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/133582/sandtrooper-deep-strike
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, February 28, 2014 12:10:59 PM
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That's still a Daala build.
Jonnyb815
Posted: Sunday, March 2, 2014 4:30:35 AM
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I am pissed that you did this. Glad I don't play anymore.
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