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Klatooinian Assassins Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 8:06:07 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
Klats are good and definitely tier 1, but certainly not broken. The easiest way to tell is to realize that they are nearly 2 years old and have only made a moderate splash at Regionals and GenCon. The runner up at GenCon used one (just one), and a few regionals have used them, but not a ton. Definitely tier 1, but a "broken" piece would be played more than that. A lot of people define "broken" as "something very very good (tier 1) that I don't like playing", which isn't really the definition, but there you go.


Klats are not broken in the sense of being unbeatable or warping the meta, but they're broken in the sense that they have too strong of an effect on what is played. You don't absolutely have to include a specific counter for him, but he is undercosted such that it's not even worth considering a large number of other pieces that otherwise might be playable. And as Fringe, he does it in many factions.

From cost 9-15, there are no pieces that I would ever take over the Klatooinian Assassin as a shooter/attacker unless basically the whole squad were built for that piece. And even then, the list is short:

SpecForce pieces
Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled
Antarian Ranger
Naboo Pilot
Kashyyyk Trooper

Or a couple Accurate shooters if you specifically need that:
Jawa Scavenger
Rodian Assassin

(There are other pieces in that range worth taking primarily for their tech/CEs, but not for their offense.)

Granted, that point range has been a weak point range for a long time - in terms of attackers it's almost always been better to go down in cost to get more activations or go up to get more staying power. The 9-15 point range is usually going to be killed in 1-activation anyway. But the Klat's presence just makes it more difficult for designers to ever make anything else in that range playable, unless it is a piece-specific boost. According to thereisnotry, 3 Klats also displace Captain Rex (even with basically no boosts).

Klats don't need a ban or errata. But I do think they need some serious hate - even in the form of a Lobot reinforcement. It's tricky, though. If you go after Cloaked, it hits more than just the Klat. I don't think Cloaked is out of place except on this piece. Almost all of the rest of the Cloaked pieces are tech pieces, uniques, melee, or Mandalorians (that's sort of their thing). So ignoring Cloaked or cover hurts a whole bunch of pieces besides just the Klatooinian. You could turn off Self-Destruct somehow, but if that's available to Separatists, one of the big counters to Lancers could be lost. Plus it would shut down Poggle-bomb or Nom-bomb squad types. (Hm. Maybe that part's not so bad after all.)
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 8:31:10 AM
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A piece can be perfectly balanced, but unfun to play.
Mando
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 8:46:04 AM
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How about this idea:

We design a new Force power called Force Sense 2.

Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round)

Put this force power on some mid to high range cost pieces in factions that the designers see fit. It is a good counter and imperials hoping to keep the klats in their force bubble run the risk of the SD 20 hurting them more than helping them. Vong are still safe from being exposed.
Deathwielded
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 9:46:16 AM
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Mando wrote:
How about this idea:

We design a new Force power called Force Sense 2.

Force Sense 2 (Force 2, usable only on this character's turn: Enemy characters lose Stealth and Cloaked for the rest of the round)

Put this force power on some mid to high range cost pieces in factions that the designers see fit. It is a good counter and imperials hoping to keep the klats in their force bubble run the risk of the SD 20 hurting them more than helping them. Vong are still safe from being exposed.


There you go, I like this idea and have been using that sort of Force power before. I do think that Cloaked isn't the problem though.

How about something more like this:
Demolitions Expert (Enemies with Traps within 6 squares lose Traps. This character and adjacent characters take no damage from Special Abilities that contains the word Mines or Self Destruct)

This is a SA I created and have been working on.
Would that help? I don't think it would nerf Self Destructs use against Lancers, but it might help against Klats Assassins.
Thoughts on that?
We could do some Fringe non-uniques or a Unique Mission Vao. Or to grant it cheap like a Demoltions Supplier that cost like 9 points that hands out that SA to Demolitionists ect.
Deathwielded
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 9:57:30 AM
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Of course if your handing it out we would remove the first part about Traps and add a save of 6 to show that you won't always be successful with bombs
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:26:37 AM
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Infrared Scope [Ignores cover when targeting]

Super-Accurate. Put it on cheap scrub-level shooters that can't get much in the way of boosts. Good for picking away at Klats, super-stealthed bombs, and other such annoyances.
atmsalad
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:34:51 AM
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We already have VSR, I think something like infrared scope that doesn't replace turn is to powerful, and if it does... Then it is just a renamed Verpine Shatter Rifle. So one solution without creating a new ability would be to give more factions access to the VSR.
atmsalad
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:47:54 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
Infrared Scope [Ignores cover when targeting]

Super-Accurate. Put it on cheap scrub-level shooters that can't get much in the way of boosts. Good for picking away at Klats, super-stealthed bombs, and other such annoyances.


Or possibly...

Advanced Spotter [Allies ignore cover when targeting a character within 6 squares of this character.]
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 10:51:57 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
Infrared Scope [Ignores cover when targeting]

Super-Accurate. Put it on cheap scrub-level shooters that can't get much in the way of boosts. Good for picking away at Klats, super-stealthed bombs, and other such annoyances.


Scrub-Level Shooter
Cost: 7
HP: 10
Def: 15
Atk: 4
Dmg: 10

SA:
Infrared Scope


But if that ability comes into existence, it would quickly migrate to higher cost pieces...
The Duros Scout has that exact stat block but with Accurate instead of Infrared Scope.
kezzamachine
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 11:29:23 AM
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Ha! Almost sounds like the kind of Star Wars name we might see... "Skraab'Levaal Chuuter"... Savaaaage Oh!Press, anyone?
Mando
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 11:34:21 AM
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kezzamachine wrote:
Ha! Almost sounds like the kind of Star Wars name we might see... "Skraab'Levaal Chuuter"... Savaaaage Oh!Press, anyone?


Sounds like a Vong name if you ask me. LOL
General_Grievous
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 12:59:48 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
We already have VSR, I think something like infrared scope that doesn't replace turn is to powerful, and if it does... Then it is just a renamed Verpine Shatter Rifle. So one solution without creating a new ability would be to give more factions access to the VSR.


Agreed, maybe making a new fringe unique costing 20 that has it so can be brought in with Lobot. Can I suggest Qymaen Jai Sheelai...

My solution to the Klat problem:

http://www.bloomilk.com/Custom/18272/qymaen-jai-sheelal
EmporerDragon
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:02:38 PM
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What about something like:

Targeting Relay: Allies ignore this character and any low objects on this character's square or adjacent to this character when determining cover.

Also another thought:

Ordinance Expert: This character may immediately move up to 3 squares when they defeat a character with Self Destruct, Grenades, Missiles, or Mines.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:05:35 PM
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Has everyone forgotton that we have characters who use abilities that ignore cover? Characters that have damage reduction? Force abilities like Repulse that don't require targeting? (FYI Embo has 2 of 3 of those suggestions.)

I played Josh recently while running a variation of my Talon squad...he was running a Klat squad pumped up by Bastilla. There were more Klats in his squad than Scruffy Hans', but I was able to adapt and beat him. I'm not a better player than Josh, I just know my squad...or at least key components of it.

While I agree that the squad is good, it's nowhere near unbeatable. That speaks to Scruffy Hans' ability and/or his familiarity with his squad.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:22:30 PM
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The v-set Grievous on Wheel Bike with Damage Reduction and Galloping Attack is a great Klat counter (who's also a good piece overall). It can run them over, needing 2s to hit them for 30, and it just takes 10 self destruct damage in return. A Sep Grievous squad should have initiative control and tempo control, allowing it to set Grievous up for a big start of round strike.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:23:36 PM
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I don't think anyone is saying they're unbeatable. (They seem to be reserving that comment for Daala.) My main complaint (as explained i more detail above) is that it outclasses pretty much everything in the 9-15 point range... making almost everything else in that range unplayable just because why not take the Klat Assassin instead?
scruffyhan
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:23:38 PM
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here is another potential klat squad i have been toying with to maybe help prove they are to good.

commando droid captain
whorm
techno union combat engineer
san hill
r7 astro
lobot
gha
5 mice
5 klat assassins
2 ughs
battle droid officer

20 base acts, can get to 30 acts with act control, klats are double twin at +16 am i correct?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 5:33:13 PM
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As long as you can keep them close to a commander. The mice don't count. Otherwise they go savage.

That's 80dmg per Klat from a total cost, including the tech to get them there, of (5x12)+(24)+(20)+(13). That's an average cost of 23.4 when you add in all the tech/CEs built into them. Only the Commando Droid Captain is a decent attacker of those 3 tech pieces. Whorm and the Engineer are just for their boosts. 23 for a 30hp Cloaked/SelfDestruct +16/80dmg figure is a pretty good deal, but then you have little mobility, have to make your commanders vulnerable, and can't spread out too far or they go savage. Could be a very strong squad, but I think the Talon version is quite a bit better.
scruffyhan
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:39:52 PM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
As long as you can keep them close to a commander. The mice don't count. Otherwise they go savage.

That's 80dmg per Klat from a total cost, including the tech to get them there, of (5x12)+(24)+(20)+(13). That's an average cost of 23.4 when you add in all the tech/CEs built into them. Only the Commando Droid Captain is a decent attacker of those 3 tech pieces. Whorm and the Engineer are just for their boosts. 23 for a 30hp Cloaked/SelfDestruct +16/80dmg figure is a pretty good deal, but then you have little mobility, have to make your commanders vulnerable, and can't spread out too far or they go savage. Could be a very strong squad, but I think the Talon version is quite a bit better.



let me try to fight down this drunken state to try to reply...........................................................................................................................................................


ok as far as commanders being vulnerable if you do not have sniper or accurate you can just mouse wall them and make them shoot at mouse droids. if you do have sniper or accurate I would bring in a bodyguard at which point you can't kill them with a single accurate shooter in the game besides the kyle katarn with jan ors and sith rage, but even then I outactivate you so you wont be getting opportunist so I guess yo wouldn' even kill it then. as far as mobility goes, it doesn't really matter as I found out in the TN regional it is basically park and shoot with them. Now it does trade off wit some other issues such as losing ysalamari and becoming subject to force powers, so there are some answers to it, but if this squad and the fringe one I made come up in te same tournament have fun everyone else.

And all I would really have to do is out activate you beause I can with 30 possible acts and act control, then move a commander up the activate the klats, or I I could bring in more mouse drods and a muun and then outact youmove in a commander, attack with klats, win int and then move commander away so you can't shoot it, then out act yu move in other commander and then act klats and repeat over and over and over and over and over. yay.
scruffyhan
Posted: Thursday, May 22, 2014 6:47:39 PM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Has everyone forgotton that we have characters who use abilities that ignore cover? Characters that have damage reduction? Force abilities like Repulse that don't require targeting? (FYI Embo has 2 of 3 of those suggestions.)

I played Josh recently while running a variation of my Talon squad...he was running a Klat squad pumped up by Bastilla. There were more Klats in his squad than Scruffy Hans', but I was able to adapt and beat him. I'm not a better player than Josh, I just know my squad...or at least key components of it.

While I agree that the squad is good, it's nowhere near unbeatable. That speaks to Scruffy Hans' ability and/or his familiarity with his squad.



plaed it onc befor tornament............ BigGrin
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