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Poll Question : Gencon is over how do we proceed with daala?
Choice Votes Statistics
she didnt win, so leave alone. 11 26.829268 %
she's still too meta warping, change her. 11 26.829268 %
only thing she needs is reserves dropped. 7 17.073170 %
Didn't win but total npe, ban her. 12 29.268292 %

Post Gencon Daala Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 4:30:22 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
The game has any number of natural elements that can be an NPE for new players. I am not saying this is good, but comparatively my squad wasn't an NPE. I didn't abuse some game mechanic to out act and smash you. I never ever locked out my opponents out to win. I can't even shoot more than 7 times in a single round. I only used 3 diplomats and my guys could only ever hit for 30. What is an NPE about it?



because how do people counter it? vehicles have a hard time due to their higher life, stealth, evade, can be super stealthed, can charge from across the map with dilpomats and stealth they may not even have legal targets. I know all of this is possible with other pieces, but not at the level this is, high attack values, decent damage, great survivability, great door control, high acts, great speed, etc. you lost to one squad and one squad only. and you beat it once. not even sure how you lost to the mando squad to be honest. I just give Weeks A TON of credit for being a great player because I am still scratching my head about your loss.


Edit* by the looks of this poll she is still a massive npe for the majority of the community. like I said it is overwhelmingly pro change, and BAN still has the highest amount of votes. I am still holding my breathe that this will even out but it appears that change is what the community wants on a much higher scale then staying the way she is.
Mando
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 8:19:05 PM
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I'd personally like it if her Prideful only affected figures of 10pts or more on your squad. I don't think she should be banned.
DonStamos
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:12:50 PM
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I voted to let her be, but in the end it won't affect me anyway. My friends and I play casual, and I doubt I'll ever participate in a tournament. She'll end up being played as written in my group. *shrugs*
urbanjedi
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:18:03 PM
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Stupid phone. Trying to read the thread and it voted to ban her.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2014 9:25:46 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
Stupid phone. Trying to read the thread and it voted to ban her.




we can change urs, we can all remember that ban her is still rocking a 10 not and 11 :)
what did you want to vote for?
Fossil4182
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:03:56 AM
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Joined: 6/9/2014
Posts: 5
I'm very new to the game (especially since the v-sets came out). However, I played Magic the Gathering (Legacy & Vintage) for a number of years and saw a fair number of cards banned. The implications of those bans where, at times, quite costly (in terms of finances & players) and fundamentally shake up the meta - the latter of which is obviously the point. Bans and errata's can really secure or shake a player's confidence and faith in the game. Therefore issuing them shouldn't be taken lightly, but if they are issued, it should be consistent and transparent.

That being said, one thing I've tried to do over the last few months is to read up on the history of the game. To my knowledge, the only time I recall a character being banned or receiving an errata was General Obi-Wan Kenobi during the WotC era. Has there been any bans or power level erratas since then? Additionally, if there have been changes, what are the criteria for banning / issuing an errata?

If Daala is dominating by making up a significant percentage of top 4's or top 8's or is so prevalent that only Daala and anti-Daala squads exist, then a ban is probably in order. If not, then with the recent release of a new v-set, I think a wait and see approach is best, possibly with a minor errata issued (maybe removing Imperial Reserves 20).
pegolego
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:26:07 AM
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General_Grievous wrote:
I agree with a new card and that sep ability where you can only have one other imperial commander in your squad.


I was thinking something like this would work too; Then you have to choose either Pellaeon OR Opportunist OR Needa's rerolls OR act control OR Super Stealth OR Snowtroop Commander etc...

That might be a bit drastic, though (unless it was a 2 or 3 limit or whatever instead of just 1), because her squares rely on so many of these elements at once, usually.
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:37:00 AM
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pegolego wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
I agree with a new card and that sep ability where you can only have one other imperial commander in your squad.


I was thinking something like this would work too; Then you have to choose either Pellaeon OR Opportunist OR Needa's rerolls OR act control OR Super Stealth OR Snowtroop Commander etc...

That might be a bit drastic, though (unless it was a 2 or 3 limit or whatever instead of just 1), because her squares rely on so many of these elements at once, usually.


I still think this could be interesting:

Quote:
Once per round, after initiative is determined, you may remove one allied Imperial commander to grant all Imperial trooper allies Charging Fire for the rest of the round.


That said, I voted for dropping Reserves. With the above CE, I would probably keep Reserves on.
pegolego
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:40:22 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
pegolego wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
I agree with a new card and that sep ability where you can only have one other imperial commander in your squad.


I was thinking something like this would work too; Then you have to choose either Pellaeon OR Opportunist OR Needa's rerolls OR act control OR Super Stealth OR Snowtroop Commander etc...

That might be a bit drastic, though (unless it was a 2 or 3 limit or whatever instead of just 1), because her squares rely on so many of these elements at once, usually.


I still think this could be interesting:

Quote:
Once per round, after initiative is determined, you may remove one allied Imperial commander to grant all Imperial trooper allies Charging Fire for the rest of the round.


That said, I voted for dropping Reserves. With the above CE, I would probably keep Reserves on.


Ah, that's an interesting idea; that limits Commanders, in a way, as the longer the game drags on, the more CEs you lose. It'll also make her tougher to build around, because if you want Charging Fire in a round (usually pretty important), you have to give up ~1/20th of your squad.
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:43:07 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
The game has any number of natural elements that can be an NPE for new players. I am not saying this is good, but comparatively my squad wasn't an NPE. I didn't abuse some game mechanic to out act and smash you. I never ever locked out my opponents out to win. I can't even shoot more than 7 times in a single round. I only used 3 diplomats and my guys could only ever hit for 30. What is an NPE about it?



because how do people counter it? vehicles have a hard time due to their higher life, stealth, evade, can be super stealthed, can charge from across the map with dilpomats and stealth they may not even have legal targets. I know all of this is possible with other pieces, but not at the level this is, high attack values, decent damage, great survivability, great door control, high acts, great speed, etc. you lost to one squad and one squad only. and you beat it once. not even sure how you lost to the mando squad to be honest. I just give Weeks A TON of credit for being a great player because I am still scratching my head about your loss.


Edit* by the looks of this poll she is still a massive npe for the majority of the community. like I said it is overwhelmingly pro change, and BAN still has the highest amount of votes. I am still holding my breathe that this will even out but it appears that change is what the community wants on a much higher scale then staying the way she is.


I lose hard to Durge, luke and leia, naboo death shots, snow troops, nomb bombs weeks mandos if they play average and I don't play well.(I have to play well to win any of these. Also mace gowk is rough and so is skybuck. How mandos won was I over extended instead of just staying in gambit on Rhen Var. I made so many play mistakes, from moving the dips to where he could shoot them to moving my scouts within disruptive so they lost super stealth.

Weeks capitalized on all of my mistakes and he himself only made maybe 1 the whole game. Props to weeks he did what no one else could do, but no one has ever beaten me playing this squad the first time.(also his squad is deceptively powerful) The fact is this squad has really rough matchups, but many tricks to counter them if it is your first time playing it. If Lou had played more with naboo that's a rough matchup regardless.

If I had played Tim's luke and leia on speeder I try to have a good time while he kicks my butt. I have plenty of bad matchups, in fact I played most of them, but when it's anyone's first time playing this squad I have the advantage.(unless it is high act Durge or Luke and leia... That rails me)
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 7:55:32 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
pegolego wrote:
General_Grievous wrote:
I agree with a new card and that sep ability where you can only have one other imperial commander in your squad.


I was thinking something like this would work too; Then you have to choose either Pellaeon OR Opportunist OR Needa's rerolls OR act control OR Super Stealth OR Snowtroop Commander etc...

That might be a bit drastic, though (unless it was a 2 or 3 limit or whatever instead of just 1), because her squares rely on so many of these elements at once, usually.


I still think this could be interesting:

Quote:
Once per round, after initiative is determined, you may remove one allied Imperial commander to grant all Imperial trooper allies Charging Fire for the rest of the round.


That said, I voted for dropping Reserves. With the above CE, I would probably keep Reserves on.


A commander limit completely nerfs every daala build. Why not make it so her CE only works on 10 points or more characters. It would make sence with her inability to lead.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:33:39 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
TheHutts wrote:
Of the three main squad types:
- Elite Scout Troopers - are fine, good strong squad, but not OP IMO.
- Dr Daman's Raxus - noone else has managed to do anything with Raxus, so I think it's more of a reflection that he's a very good player who's well practiced with his squad. If I do have a concern in his setup, it's maybe Needa, who is a lot on top of the other attack boosts his squad gets, and means that he basically never misses against moderate defense targets.
- Snowtroopers - I am a little concerned about Snowtroopers still - I know they didn't make the top 4 at GenCon, but after running them at the NZ National tournament I felt like I had masses of power at my disposal and there wasn't much that most of the other squads I played could do against mine - all my wins were fairly comfortable, and three of my five wins were big pastings that were demoralising for my opponent. I would support a change in the Snowtrooper Officer's Rapport from 2 to 1. Snowtroopers are a very one dimensional squad in some ways, and they're probably less likely to win tournaments than the other builds, since they have less tricks. But at the same time, they're very extreme, and make life very un-fun for some squads.

Both of these changes are relatively minor though, and it might not be worth the administrative/confusion effort of a change on top of the previous change to enforce them.


I think any change at this point (beyond dropping reserves) would be equivalent to a ban. Her power level is at the point where if she is nerfed further I wouldn't play her anymore. Not sure how the other Daala players feel. Yes, I made top 8, but out of 5 games in Swiss I lost 1, had 2 that were extremely close, and 1 that could have tipped the other way with just a couple of bad die rolls. In retrospect, I would have done better with my Bare Bones squad - at least one of the wins would have been easier - but it would have been an autoloss to any decent Yobuck player.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:34:45 AM
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One of my suggestions from a previous topic seemed to garner some popularity, where we give her:

Inefficiency (Troopers with a printed cost of 10 or less cost 1 more when in a squad with this character and no longer count as an eligible character for Rapport)
DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:36:42 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
A commander limit completely nerfs every daala build. Why not make it so her CE only works on 10 points or more characters. It would make sence with her inability to lead.

Yes! and drop her reserves.
AceAce
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:40:18 AM
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I didn't go up against her in the championships but have played against her many times (including against variants of Etienne's squad against him,) and wished I had played against one. I did play Trevor in 150 JC and he used her and it was ridiculous (he said as much.) I played an O/R droid squad with Bao, IG-86's, and HK-47 and didn't have a chance. There are simply so many shots in typical builds that they are fine rolling away until they hit with substantial damage. They WILL outactivate you and then unloose everything (reminds me of Eric's old IG-86 squads with a million mouse droids and San.) That style of play simply is not fun to play against and makes it suicide to run at them. Only chances are movement kings with Gallop or Strafe and not everyone wants or should have to play them to be competitive. If she was made to not allow tempo control that would go at least a way to making it okay but still not desirable or enough. Truth be told, Naboo's with unstoppable death shots and no way to disrupt them are just about if not as bad.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 8:47:47 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
atmsalad wrote:
The game has any number of natural elements that can be an NPE for new players. I am not saying this is good, but comparatively my squad wasn't an NPE. I didn't abuse some game mechanic to out act and smash you. I never ever locked out my opponents out to win. I can't even shoot more than 7 times in a single round. I only used 3 diplomats and my guys could only ever hit for 30. What is an NPE about it?



because how do people counter it? vehicles have a hard time due to their higher life, stealth, evade, can be super stealthed, can charge from across the map with dilpomats and stealth they may not even have legal targets. I know all of this is possible with other pieces, but not at the level this is, high attack values, decent damage, great survivability, great door control, high acts, great speed, etc. you lost to one squad and one squad only. and you beat it once. not even sure how you lost to the mando squad to be honest. I just give Weeks A TON of credit for being a great player because I am still scratching my head about your loss.


Edit* by the looks of this poll she is still a massive npe for the majority of the community. like I said it is overwhelmingly pro change, and BAN still has the highest amount of votes. I am still holding my breathe that this will even out but it appears that change is what the community wants on a much higher scale then staying the way she is.


I lose hard to Durge, luke and leia, naboo death shots, snow troops, nomb bombs weeks mandos if they play average and I don't play well.(I have to play well to win any of these. Also mace gowk is rough and so is skybuck. How mandos won was I over extended instead of just staying in gambit on Rhen Var. I made so many play mistakes, from moving the dips to where he could shoot them to moving my scouts within disruptive so they lost super stealth.

Weeks capitalized on all of my mistakes and he himself only made maybe 1 the whole game. Props to weeks he did what no one else could do, but no one has ever beaten me playing this squad the first time.(also his squad is deceptively powerful) The fact is this squad has really rough matchups, but many tricks to counter them if it is your first time playing it. If Lou had played more with naboo that's a rough matchup regardless.

If I had played Tim's luke and leia on speeder I try to have a good time while he kicks my butt. I have plenty of bad matchups, in fact I played most of them, but when it's anyone's first time playing this squad I have the advantage.(unless it is high act Durge or Luke and leia... That rails me)





I bolded what is most important in your post to me. if they play average, and you don't play well... who cares if that's when/how they beat you, that is true for every squad at the top level of competition. So Mandos won because you made mistakes, that is not a reflection of the balance of daala that is a reflection of you making some mistakes and him no making mistakes.
The fact is that you showed up with Daala to a very anti-daala tournament and almost own the whole thing. it amazes me that people still try to defend her. your games with those people should have been hard and you should have lost, they were counters to your squad, and yet you rose above and beat them anyways.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 9:00:47 AM
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EmporerDragon wrote:
One of my suggestions from a previous topic seemed to garner some popularity, where we give her:

Inefficiency (Troopers with a printed cost of 10 or less cost 1 more when in a squad with this character and no longer count as an eligible character for Rapport)



this this this BigGrin
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 9:43:28 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
EmporerDragon wrote:
One of my suggestions from a previous topic seemed to garner some popularity, where we give her:

Inefficiency (Troopers with a printed cost of 10 or less cost 1 more when in a squad with this character and no longer count as an eligible character for Rapport)



this this this BigGrin


That would have no effect at all on the squad that came in second at GenCon.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 9:54:03 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
EmporerDragon wrote:
One of my suggestions from a previous topic seemed to garner some popularity, where we give her:

Inefficiency (Troopers with a printed cost of 10 or less cost 1 more when in a squad with this character and no longer count as an eligible character for Rapport)



this this this BigGrin


That would have no effect at all on the squad that came in second at GenCon.



I know, this is the start of the changes I would make. lol.
THEGUNGAN
Posted: Monday, August 18, 2014 10:29:48 AM
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Joined: 12/25/2009
Posts: 27
After seeing Daala played I think the problem is that the pieces she works with can move and do ranged attacked. After really thinking about it thats the problem in my Eyes. isn't Han armor the one that makes you base?

The problem is that they can move around and still stay away. That makes a big difference vs Ewoks(Plays like cheap troopers or Wookiees(plays like Scouts).

The squad that took second plays a lot like a Wookie squad but has the sled/officer as its deep threat.

I say change the CE to the one that makes you base and come out with pieces in Vset 9 that balance things like Vset 7 did with Gallop/Strafe.

I really don't know what Reserves does to balance things?



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