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The end of Viable and the rise of Grand Master Flash Options
joelker41
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:35:13 AM
Rank: Grand Master Yoda
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/13/2008
Posts: 508
mercenary_moose wrote:
I have to give owaller credit for making a playable 150 squad with Grandmaster Luke in it, and also including init and door control too. Very difficult to do. However, I don't like the fact that you don't even have the pretense of a supporting attacker in this squad. The next most dangerous piece you have is Dodonna, with a pitiful +3/10. Once Luke activates, your entire round is over and he is free for the opponents to work over. Worse, if you get Luke stunned by the opponent, it is an absolutely lost round; you can do nothing until the next init. I have to applaud owaller for crating a 150 GMLS sqaud, but I just don't think it's competitive.


He didn't 'create' anything lol.

Everyone who saw that figure instantly threw he and Dodnna in to a squad, the rest was just deciding filler. Throwing in Mice and Ugos with a non-offensive Commander and the highest point figure in the game is what every semi-competent team builder did when they saw those stats.

Heck the guy even left it at 148! Put in a Camaasi, steal some gambit, give Luke mobile cover!
mercenary_moose
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 10:51:14 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 12/11/2008
Posts: 1,122
joelker41 wrote:
mercenary_moose wrote:
I have to give owaller credit for making a playable 150 squad with Grandmaster Luke in it, and also including init and door control too. Very difficult to do. However, I don't like the fact that you don't even have the pretense of a supporting attacker in this squad. The next most dangerous piece you have is Dodonna, with a pitiful +3/10. Once Luke activates, your entire round is over and he is free for the opponents to work over. Worse, if you get Luke stunned by the opponent, it is an absolutely lost round; you can do nothing until the next init. I have to applaud owaller for crating a 150 GMLS sqaud, but I just don't think it's competitive.


He didn't 'create' anything lol.

Everyone who saw that figure instantly threw he and Dodnna in to a squad, the rest was just deciding filler. Throwing in Mice and Ugos with a non-offensive Commander and the highest point figure in the game is what every semi-competent team builder did when they saw those stats.

Heck the guy even left it at 148! Put in a Camaasi, steal some gambit, give Luke mobile cover!


Sorry, I was just using the "give credit" thing in a general phrase. You know what I mean, and I would be very suprised if you didn't use that expression all the time on both these forums and in everyday conversations. You do have a point: people build squads like this all the time. Kinda like the 100 GOWK builds, where they just throw GOWK, Dash, and fodder in a squad and call it "unique".
joelker41
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 12:26:51 PM
Rank: Grand Master Yoda
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/13/2008
Posts: 508
mercenary_moose wrote:
joelker41 wrote:
mercenary_moose wrote:
I have to give owaller credit for making a playable 150 squad with Grandmaster Luke in it, and also including init and door control too. Very difficult to do. However, I don't like the fact that you don't even have the pretense of a supporting attacker in this squad. The next most dangerous piece you have is Dodonna, with a pitiful +3/10. Once Luke activates, your entire round is over and he is free for the opponents to work over. Worse, if you get Luke stunned by the opponent, it is an absolutely lost round; you can do nothing until the next init. I have to applaud owaller for crating a 150 GMLS sqaud, but I just don't think it's competitive.


He didn't 'create' anything lol.

Everyone who saw that figure instantly threw he and Dodnna in to a squad, the rest was just deciding filler. Throwing in Mice and Ugos with a non-offensive Commander and the highest point figure in the game is what every semi-competent team builder did when they saw those stats.

Heck the guy even left it at 148! Put in a Camaasi, steal some gambit, give Luke mobile cover!


Sorry, I was just using the "give credit" thing in a general phrase. You know what I mean, and I would be very suprised if you didn't use that expression all the time on both these forums and in everyday conversations. You do have a point: people build squads like this all the time. Kinda like the 100 GOWK builds, where they just throw GOWK, Dash, and fodder in a squad and call it "unique".


Yeah people just do it to dang often IMO.

This game only has a certain number of possible combos and to claim one person made a squad and it's 'their' squad is a stretch to say the least.

I don't like to 'take credit' for stuff, I do take credit for playing an original (as in not played yet) squad at my LGS but that's it.
Sithborg
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:27:31 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator, Rules Guy

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
owaller3 wrote:
You also need to understand that I can deny you the win by simply killing a few of your support pieces and then run away since Luke is 115 pts. With Master Speed and renewal 2 there is no way you can catch me (that's 24 movement). I will reiterate again how I can run in late round after you have activated everything and put 40dmg on any of your support pieces and then if I win inititiative or save the thud bug, kill off the said piece and run away and hide. Sure you can bunch up all of your pieces but that might just entice me to put 120 dmg on the piece or pieces that are adjacent. Or I might just run away allowing the Aoos and if you hit, Djem So Style Mastery for 60 dmg each hit. The fact that Luke cannot use lightsaber defense or reroll attacks or saves is not a huge deterent to this squad. Luke has an awsome attack matched with awsome speed. Vong can beat this squad with some really unlucky rolls on Lukes part. But the odds of facing this Vong squad matched with really unlucky rolls is so small that it doesn't make sense to give up on this squad because of it. Against any other squad Luke will just pound them into the dirt. I will test your squad against mine and we will see the results. Anything else is just pure conjecture.


You sound like a fun opponent. I'm sure you miss lock out victories from the pre-Gambit days.

And Jedi Academy hasn't changed much. There are still FAR too many bad matchups for Luke. Vong is a big one. Shooters as well.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:42:12 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/25/2008
Posts: 121
LoboStele wrote:
Test games have already been played. Luke dies a fast and painful death to the CURRENT Vong squads that are top tier. So, this isn't even including the newer pieces we'll be getting in JA. It doesn't matter if Luke can run 12, hit something, then run away the next round. On average, he only does 10 damage to a Vong each time he hits them. Obviously, getting some Djem So saves in there helps (not sure if you can re-roll those saves against Vong...will have to check on that one). But here's typically how it works.

Luke runs in at the end of a round and hits a Vong JH twice, for likely only 20 damage because of Crab Armor. If Luke wins init, he hits that same Vong with Triple/Twin, putting at least 60 on him, and killing him.

Now, though, Luke is stuck in one place for the rest of that round. Two other Vong JHs come up and wail on Luke. They are a +13 with JH, and probably have Wicket backing them up, so they only need 6's to hit. They're also doing 30 damage, plus Poison, so odds being what they are, they probably put between 90-120 damage on Luke. That's just from 2 pieces. Now, the other Vong, hiding behind the JHs, namely the Shaper and Yomin Carr probably, throw Spit Poison attacks, for another 20 damage total (50/50 odds). Now, Luke probably got some Djem so attacks against the JHs, so he probably put 30-60 damage on each one. IF Luke is lucky enough to win init again, he can kill one, maybe both of the JHs with a Double/Twin. But now he's stuck sitting in the open once again, and then Yomin and the Shaper can spit poison him, again, probably doing 20 damage. So, let's count it up. Even if the odds are working against the Vong, Luke has probably taken 130 damage at this point (90 from JHs, 40 from two rounds of Spit Poison). If things are running statistically average, Luke is dead already. And losing just 1 of those inits changes the whole game, because then one of those JHs gets to activate and hit Luke twice more before Luke gets to activate.
.


My point wasn't to leave Luke swinging in the breeze while the entire vong squad takes pop shots at him. What I have stated above was to use Lukes speed to position him out of LOS and move him in late round to kill off the support pieces.(NOT THE OSSUS WITH CRAB ARMOR) After you have done this then you can either 1: stall and win on points or 2: engage the Ossus and kill them one by one since they do 40dmg vs luke 120 + DSSM at another possible 50dmg a hit.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:46:25 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/25/2008
Posts: 121
Sithborg wrote:
You sound like a fun opponent. I'm sure you miss lock out victories from the pre-Gambit days.


I wasn't around during pre-gambit days. So no I never used lock out victories.
dnemiller
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:49:25 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 538
Location: GC, Missouri
owaller3 wrote:
Eroschilles wrote:
Um, usually vong are played fairly close together, so runing in and out is going to provoke attacks of oppurtunity from the characters you are running by to attack your target. You are not goiing to run in and out in a single turn, so you will have to base one to kill it. The others all gang up on luke as soons as they are able. The OGs have Razorbug, so I if they have line of sight they have a 50% chance of killing some one on your team or damaging them.

If luke bases an OG and loses the next initiative, luke just lost eighty health from 1 OG. Without cunning, it's still 60 dmage with 9s or higher.

But this is a good squad nonetheless. You make up on low activations with dodonna and all the scrubs, but the vong who are immune to all of lukes force powers and can reduce the damage with a save of 6 are going to be a problem.

I might borrow your squad even sometime at my LGS b/c I think it'll be fun to play.


You also need to understand that I can deny you the win by simply killing a few of your support pieces and then run away since Luke is 115 pts. With Master Speed and renewal 2 there is no way you can catch me (that's 24 movement). I will reiterate again how I can run in late round after you have activated everything and put 40dmg on any of your support pieces and then if I win inititiative or save the thud bug, kill off the said piece and run away and hide. Sure you can bunch up all of your pieces but that might just entice me to put 120 dmg on the piece or pieces that are adjacent. Or I might just run away allowing the Aoos and if you hit, Djem So Style Mastery for 60 dmg each hit. The fact that Luke cannot use lightsaber defense or reroll attacks or saves is not a huge deterent to this squad. Luke has an awsome attack matched with awsome speed. Vong can beat this squad with some really unlucky rolls on Lukes part. But the odds of facing this Vong squad matched with really unlucky rolls is so small that it doesn't make sense to give up on this squad because of it. Against any other squad Luke will just pound them into the dirt. I will test your squad against mine and we will see the results. Anything else is just pure conjecture.


This is kind of funny because I have already test against your squad. Joruus and I tested it like the week we saw the stats.

Here is a squad that just hurts it:

New Thrawn
Moff Nyna
Czerka

Fill the rest in with Kel Dors......

This trashes Luke very quickly.

So I guess I just think you are overstating his chances. Also Luke cannot Stack Master Speed.

I am sure you are competent player but telling me you pound me into the dirt is comical. I already know Joruus is a very good player and he did not fair well against it. But hey you can put your money where your mouth is and bring this squad to Gencon. That will end all conjecture and I will await to watch you pound everyone into the dirt. At this point after all this blustering I will be quite disappointed if you show to Gencon and not play this squad.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:50:18 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/25/2008
Posts: 121
joelker41 wrote:
Wow...opinionated much?

Playing Luke, Dodonna, and filler is at best...as sub par idea and the execution of will be even less so.


Maybe you should be asking yourself the very same question.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 1:55:17 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/25/2008
Posts: 121
@dnmiller

I never stated I would pound you into the dirt. The master speed thing was a big oversite. Makes the squad a little less effective but I still think if played correctly it can put a hurting on most squads. I will leave it at that until I have had enough time to test the strategy. So it is no longer necessary for everyone on bloomilk to state that I am wrong.
owaller3
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 2:00:24 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/25/2008
Posts: 121
joelker41 wrote:
He didn't 'create' anything lol.

Heck the guy even left it at 148! Put in a Camaasi, steal some gambit, give Luke mobile cover!


Please see the first post where I state this isn't very original. I didn't add the camaasi because of the play style that I was thinking of. Move in hit move out. By doing this the camaasi would be dead meat. Calling me semi-compentent is pretty low when you don't understand what I am saying. Perhaps you should put in some thought before you post.
joelker41
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 2:11:03 PM
Rank: Grand Master Yoda
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/13/2008
Posts: 508
owaller3 wrote:
joelker41 wrote:
He didn't 'create' anything lol.

Heck the guy even left it at 148! Put in a Camaasi, steal some gambit, give Luke mobile cover!


Please see the first post where I state this isn't very original. I didn't add the camaasi because of the play style that I was thinking of. Move in hit move out. By doing this the camaasi would be dead meat. Calling me semi-compentent is pretty low when you don't understand what I am saying. Perhaps you should put in some thought before you post.


I never called you incompetent or even semi incompentent, I merely stated that you saying this squad is going to wreck 'most squads' and that the strategy is as solid as you claim is an oversight seeing as we don't know what JA has to offer yet, or what the meta will look like.

I just find it odd that moose was congratulating you on something that wasn't original (if you read my post I never said you claimed it was your original idea), wasn't actually proven, and wasn't actually for sure the best optimized version.

I have a problem with 'statement' posts in general, and your original post, and them since have been nothing but 'statements' instead of discussion creators, they are merely argument/correction magnets.

Just how I see it. I was responding in kind.
Tirade
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 4:46:21 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 536
Location: Tracy, CA
Like I said before, Luke is more of a 200 piece. You just can't squeeze in into the squad at 150. And Dodonna + Uggies/Mice hardly seems like the best option. I'd rather take my chances with the Luke/Leia combo. At least Leia offers another target for the opposition. You really have to kill her or watch Luke re-roll like crazy.
Tirade
Posted: Monday, June 8, 2009 4:49:25 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 536
Location: Tracy, CA
owaller3 wrote:
Tirade wrote:
Another reason I would consider running Leia with Luke. Yes, your activation count hurts, but Luke gets free re-rolls. He wouldn't be in as much trouble against the Vong.


I really don't like limiting my activations for the off chance that I face Vong. Even if I face Vong I don't think I will have too much trouble. While Leia would help out she would be too limiting because she needs to be within 6 and with her in the build that leaves 3 slots for door control and mouse droids. Thats far too few to be effective.


You might be surprised how much more effective the Luke/Leia squad would be versus your original build. The re-rolling is not just for Vong. It's for re-rolling any wide range of things.
sol
Posted: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 1:53:28 AM
Rank: B'omarr Monk
Groups: Member

Joined: 12/4/2008
Posts: 32
IG-108 wrote:
sol wrote:
IG-108 wrote:
I would like to try and come up with something that could defeat this squad easily, but when I think about it, I'm sure you can think of how Luke will beat whatever I think up. It's a great squad, especially if you're playing it the way you described.
Just one question. Could Count Dooku of Serrano pose a potential threat if he bases Luke? Of course, Luke could probably just take an attack of opportunity and escape Dooku, but one on one melee against Makashi might be a little tough.

Makashi doesn't do anything to DSSM. It can possibly help Dooku of Sorenno avoid some damage, Luke is twin attacking. Dooku's FL will damage Dooku if he is based, and if he is based, then Luke with Triple Twin him, with odds being what they are, putting 60 or more on Dooku. If Dooku ever thinks about hitting Luke with his Lightsaber, i would probably take the damage and DSSM for 60 unless it meant Luke dying due to other damage.

But Djem-So is still an attack back at Dooku, so can't he still block it with Makashi? And if it were me playing Dooku against GMLS, I wouldn't even attempt Force lightning because it'd be a waste of needed Force points.


Yes, he can block it with Makashi. I said as much. However, Luke is Twin Attack on DSSM, and you are in base with him. So he is effectively getting two turns to your one turn every time you attack him in melee. And on his turn, he is Triple Twin Attacking. there's not enough FP in the world for all that.
IG-108
Posted: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 2:44:18 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/30/2008
Posts: 488
Location: Wisconsin
sol wrote:
IG-108 wrote:
sol wrote:
IG-108 wrote:
I would like to try and come up with something that could defeat this squad easily, but when I think about it, I'm sure you can think of how Luke will beat whatever I think up. It's a great squad, especially if you're playing it the way you described.
Just one question. Could Count Dooku of Serrano pose a potential threat if he bases Luke? Of course, Luke could probably just take an attack of opportunity and escape Dooku, but one on one melee against Makashi might be a little tough.

Makashi doesn't do anything to DSSM. It can possibly help Dooku of Sorenno avoid some damage, Luke is twin attacking. Dooku's FL will damage Dooku if he is based, and if he is based, then Luke with Triple Twin him, with odds being what they are, putting 60 or more on Dooku. If Dooku ever thinks about hitting Luke with his Lightsaber, i would probably take the damage and DSSM for 60 unless it meant Luke dying due to other damage.

But Djem-So is still an attack back at Dooku, so can't he still block it with Makashi? And if it were me playing Dooku against GMLS, I wouldn't even attempt Force lightning because it'd be a waste of needed Force points.


Yes, he can block it with Makashi. I said as much. However, Luke is Twin Attack on DSSM, and you are in base with him. So he is effectively getting two turns to your one turn every time you attack him in melee. And on his turn, he is Triple Twin Attacking. there's not enough FP in the world for all that.

But there might be just enough luck for all that.
perk9600
Posted: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 5:02:38 AM
Rank: Human Bodyguard
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/4/2008
Posts: 11
sol wrote:


Yes, he can block it with Makashi. I said as much. However, Luke is Twin Attack on DSSM, and you are in base with him. So he is effectively getting two turns to your one turn every time you attack him in melee. And on his turn, he is Triple Twin Attacking. there's not enough FP in the world for all that.



No, he can't block it with Makashi (RTC). Makashi makes no reference to Djem So as that woudl be totally out of flavor (Again RTC). Dooku, a Makashi user was owned by Anakin a Djem So user and Dooku owned Obi-wan a Sorseu user (hence why Makashi works on Sorseu). I don't want to suggest you read the card, but maybe you want to read the card?

Eroschilles
Posted: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 5:18:59 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 812
Location: Parkville, MD
He wasn't referring to preventing djem so from functioning, just that the attacks from djem so could be parried with makashi for no damage.
perk9600
Posted: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 7:20:35 AM
Rank: Human Bodyguard
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/4/2008
Posts: 11
Eroschilles wrote:
He wasn't referring to preventing djem so from functioning, just that the attacks from djem so could be parried with makashi for no damage.



Crap, I should go read the card! Blushing
AdmiralAckbar
Posted: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:49:17 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 4/16/2008
Posts: 286
perk9600 wrote:
Eroschilles wrote:
He wasn't referring to preventing djem so from functioning, just that the attacks from djem so could be parried with makashi for no damage.



Crap, I should go read the card! Blushing



That would be wiseCool
perk9600
Posted: Friday, June 12, 2009 4:57:35 AM
Rank: Human Bodyguard
Groups: Member

Joined: 8/4/2008
Posts: 11
AdmiralAckbar wrote:
perk9600 wrote:
Eroschilles wrote:
He wasn't referring to preventing djem so from functioning, just that the attacks from djem so could be parried with makashi for no damage.



Crap, I should go read the card! Blushing



That would be wiseCool


Yeah, I feel pretty stupid.
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