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We need to talk about the latest Darth Bane.. Options
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:26:00 AM
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Posts: 354
DarkDracul wrote:
Darth_Reignir wrote:
Look, I get that we're always going to hide behind various things in order to disguise the tremendous NPE some of these pieces bring to the table, but as a community, as fellow gamers, and as members of a dying game, I just wish we'd take the time to acknowledge that NPE exists, and try to curttail it in some way. Being shut down and told to just deal with it, or denying that it exists in some cases -- or the double-standard of, "Dude, just use shooters!" and then wondering why melee-based teams are losing their edge, in my opinion, is helping no one.


Good news is that the NPE you're concerned about does not exist because it is not possible in 200pt constructed.
You can't get conscription Mando -Ulic & Bane together with Mando Training Sargent or give Bane Evade and Perry.
However, I'm glad you brought this issue up...

The even better news is that you've helped me figure out what to play in 500pt Epic! muh haahaha!

maybe something like this?....
--Sith NPE--
143 Mandalore the First
63 Darth Bane, Sith'ari
61 Ulic Qel-Droma
36 Atton "Jaq" Rand
34 Mandalorian Training Sergeant
28 Kelborn
28 Neo-Crusader Officer
24 Mandalorian Tactician
46 Neo-Crusader Elite Trooper x2
20 Darth Wyyrlok III
11 Darth Sidious Hologram
6 Mandalorian Demolitionist

(500pts. 13 activations)


Bane = 63 pts
Ulic = 61 pts
Mando Traing Sergeant x2 = (34x2) = 76

That's 192 points. I don't know what math you're using to suggest that it can't be done in a 200pt game.
Mando
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:31:15 AM
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urbanjedi wrote:
Lilywan actually took a Bane/Revan squad to the WI regional and made the top cut. She lost to ATMsalad in both the Swiss and then again in the finals (Grievous spotter/sniper) and from all accounts neither game was in question at any point.

Bane is one of the many beats that excels against other melee based squads but falls like a chump to anything with a gun.


my friend that came with me to the regional was playing Thon song and he got 161pts vs the Bane squad Lilywan was playing also, so I don't think the Darth Bane is a problem. It is good against certain matchups for sure, but I think balanced squads can do quite well vs him.
theultrastar
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:35:04 AM
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You need to read the Mando Training Sgt. CE closer. It only works on Mandalorians. Bane is not a Mandalorian. So yeah the Training Sgt cannot give Bane Evade/Parry. At least in 200pt play.
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:37:42 AM
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theultrastar wrote:
You need to read the Mando Training Sgt. CE closer. It only works on Mandalorians. Bane is not a Mandalorian. So yeah the Training Sgt cannot give Bane Evade/Parry. At least in 200pt play.


I am relieved that it cannot be done. However, we're still talking about a 63 point piece with outrageous stats that tears through pieces that cost way more than he does.
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:45:56 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
Bane = 63 pts
Ulic = 61 pts
Mando Traing Sergeant x2 = (34x2) = 76

That's 192 points. I don't know what math you're using to suggest that it can't be done in a 200pt game.


I don't think it is fare to say that anyone that disagrees with you is mocking you. Secondly, to reiterate what others have already said, the training sargeant can only boost Mandalorians. You have nothing in the squad that makes bane a mandolorian. So the training sergeants cannot boost bane at this point level. That is what Darkdracul was referring to, he wasn't mocking you...

(Beat to it by the ultra star...)
Darth_Reignir
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 9:49:07 AM
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atmsalad wrote:
Darth_Reignir wrote:
Bane = 63 pts
Ulic = 61 pts
Mando Traing Sergeant x2 = (34x2) = 76

That's 192 points. I don't know what math you're using to suggest that it can't be done in a 200pt game.


I don't think it is fare to say that anyone that disagrees with you is mocking you. Secondly, to reiterate what others have already said, the training sargeant can only boost Mandalorians. You have nothing in the squad that makes bane a mandolorian. So the training sergeants cannot boost bane at this point level. That is what Darkdracul was referring to, he wasn't mocking you...


I understand that now. It was the player's mistake, and mine for not reading it. However, when I mention that a piece causes NPE, even without the mishap, and someone (Dracul) says, Here's my team named "Sith NPE!" It's pretty obvious that the claim of NPE isn't taken seriously.

And to addres the other person who said that we don't hide behind the rules to allow NPE, someone tell me who thinks playing 10 Mouse droids and Gha Nackt is fun/not an NPE.
atmsalad
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:09:29 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
I am relieved that it cannot be done. However, we're still talking about a 63 point piece with outrageous stats that tears through pieces that cost way more than he does.

This bane was created to be at the current 200 point game what the old one was at 100. A one man melee wrecking crew with a lack of defensive abilities. He is a melee glass cannon so to speak. Like urban Jedi said, mine and Lilly's game was an uphill battle for her. You can give bane illusion, but then he is handicapped to stay within range.

Is he really good for his cost? Yes, but you are paying for all offense and zero defense with him. If you are playing all melee against this guy you will probably have some struggles, but for this guy to be really good you have to pair him with Marka for extra force and illusion. Investing a lot of points in a guy this is melee handicapped in a game that is dominated by shooters...
Caedus
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:18:52 AM
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Ok, but isn't the SA Flight "bending the rules"? Ok I can get adjacent to you and attack you because we are side by side, but you can move away from me without provoking attack opportunity because you're "flying" and instantly higher than I can reach? Quick Draw and other abilities counter that. Yes he is a beatstick, and a BIG one but if you can get to him, from distance and/or activations he is beatable. All the pieces are. I just don't see how banning helps the game. Maybe I'm off base?
Prestige Worldwide
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:25:56 AM
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I'm fascinated by the people who believe they are not bending rules for NPE, when the game apparently allows Force Ghosts to count as living allies for Transfer Essence.
Caedus
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:47:01 AM
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Prestige Worldwide wrote:
I'm fascinated by the people who believe they are not bending rules for NPE, when the game apparently allows Force Ghosts to count as living allies for Transfer Essence.




Exactly. I saw a squad today with Capt Tarpals that has a CE that allows characters to use abilities that replace attacks twice. Sounds an awful lot like Master of the Force 2. So would that mean you can use 2 Different abilities or one ability twice. Seems like "bending" to me
gholli69
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:54:31 AM
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Yes, the problem with poggle was his ability to spam a bunch of 2pnt. Activations and made it so a seps. Squad was able to you activate almost anything, and even with bastillas CE suppression you still get out activated and then pounded by durge or Cad at the end of the round, and Bastillas eventually runs out of FPs to be able to turn on her ABM. Also the recent bans were not necessarily permanent, they are temporary until the new quality control/balance team can take a look at ways to either counter or errata them to help get rid of NPEs that the majority of the community agrees existed. Darth Bane Situation on the other hand has never to my knowledge been mentioned by anyone else as a major NPE, and that is why The Hutts was asking for more data on the issue, and as others have stated, in 200, the NPE described isn't even possible so kind of a moot point as far as competitive play goes, and if you don't play anything other than casual with your own play group then maybe a local ban for your play group is the way to go but suggesting that Bane needs to be banned altogether is probably too much.
DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 10:58:51 AM
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
However, when I mention that a piece causes NPE, even without the mishap, and someone (Dracul) says, Here's my team named "Sith NPE!" It's pretty obvious that the claim of NPE isn't taken seriously.

Mad
No dude, I took you very seriously I intend to play a squad at GenCon based on your faulty claim of NPE.
I don't know if it will actually be an NPE in 500 Epic, but I'm enjoying thinking about the tears of my opponents.Drool


SignerJ
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:11:47 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:
I'm fascinated by the people who believe they are not bending rules for NPE, when the game apparently allows Force Ghosts to count as living allies for Transfer Essence.




Exactly. I saw a squad today with Capt Tarpals that has a CE that allows characters to use abilities that replace attacks twice. Sounds an awful lot like Master of the Force 2. So would that mean you can use 2 Different abilities or one ability twice. Seems like "bending" to me


I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but, either way, those are both WotC issues. They have nothing to do with the Vsets.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:50:49 AM
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SignerJ wrote:
Caedus wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:
I'm fascinated by the people who believe they are not bending rules for NPE, when the game apparently allows Force Ghosts to count as living allies for Transfer Essence.




Exactly. I saw a squad today with Capt Tarpals that has a CE that allows characters to use abilities that replace attacks twice. Sounds an awful lot like Master of the Force 2. So would that mean you can use 2 Different abilities or one ability twice. Seems like "bending" to me


I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but, either way, those are both WotC issues. They have nothing to do with the Vsets.


There were no force ghost transfer issues until the vsets though
donnyrides
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 11:59:28 AM
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New bane gives casuals (me) a reason to use the piece that I was SOOOOO excited to open from a booster. Reading about bane in books and then reading the WotC stat card I was like, "WHAT" no lightning??? I have to admit, I was hoping for armor on bane too, but I'm not greedy, I'm glad we were all given a nice V-set glass cannon bane that costed at a rate that allows for some good add ins such as my silly little contraption that gives bane crab armor 6.

--Bane Has Crabs--
63 Darth Bane, Sith'ari
54 Darth Caedus, Sith Lord
30 Vergere
20 Darth Wyyrlok III
11 Darth Sidious Hologram
8 Galactic Alliance Guard Sniper
8 R7 Astromech Droid
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

Point is, he costs too much to play in real competitive match ups because you can't buff him much. He is still too slow and can't do much to save himself from about 20 shots a turn since it's very tough to give him evade. MAYBE if he had cloaked he could be dangerous but that doesn't make a lot of sense for bane.
countrydude82487
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 12:10:34 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
SignerJ wrote:
Caedus wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:
I'm fascinated by the people who believe they are not bending rules for NPE, when the game apparently allows Force Ghosts to count as living allies for Transfer Essence.




Exactly. I saw a squad today with Capt Tarpals that has a CE that allows characters to use abilities that replace attacks twice. Sounds an awful lot like Master of the Force 2. So would that mean you can use 2 Different abilities or one ability twice. Seems like "bending" to me


I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but, either way, those are both WotC issues. They have nothing to do with the Vsets.


There were no force ghost transfer issues until the vsets though


That is simply because WOTC never did the Sith Force Ghosts, and in the V-sets they used the same wording
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 12:12:14 PM
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countrydude82487 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
SignerJ wrote:
Caedus wrote:
Prestige Worldwide wrote:
I'm fascinated by the people who believe they are not bending rules for NPE, when the game apparently allows Force Ghosts to count as living allies for Transfer Essence.




Exactly. I saw a squad today with Capt Tarpals that has a CE that allows characters to use abilities that replace attacks twice. Sounds an awful lot like Master of the Force 2. So would that mean you can use 2 Different abilities or one ability twice. Seems like "bending" to me


I'm not sure if you're serious or not, but, either way, those are both WotC issues. They have nothing to do with the Vsets.


There were no force ghost transfer issues until the vsets though


That is simply because WOTC never did the Sith Force Ghosts, and in the V-sets they used the same wording



Therefore it was a vset addition that caused the problem. It did not exist now it does, sounds pretty clear cut to me.
juice man
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 12:13:14 PM
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Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
DarkDracul wrote:

The even better news is that you've helped me figure out what to play in 500pt Epic! muh haahaha!
maybe something like this?....
--Sith NPE--
143 Mandalore the First
63 Darth Bane, Sith'ari
61 Ulic Qel-Droma
36 Atton "Jaq" Rand
34 Mandalorian Training Sergeant
28 Kelborn
28 Neo-Crusader Officer
24 Mandalorian Tactician
46 Neo-Crusader Elite Trooper x2
20 Darth Wyyrlok III
11 Darth Sidious Hologram
6 Mandalorian Demolitionist

(500pts. 13 activations)

I ran something like this once (NY I think, no Training Sergeants then.)

--I'm gonna Sith on your parade.--

142 Darth Bane in Orbalisk Armor
75 Mandalore the Ultimate
61 Ulic Qel-Droma
55 Mandalore the Preserver
54 Darth Caedus, Sith Lord
68 Mandalorian Training Sergeant x2
30 Vergere
15 Ugnaught Demolitionist x5

(500pts. 13 activations)

Orbi Bane has 2 saves for Orb Armor, 1 save for Beskargam and 1 save 6 for Crab Armor.
Got shredded by Overwhelming Power. Just think though, Parry and Evade plus all the other stuff.
AceAce
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 1:07:25 PM
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I don't think there is a 500 point this year
spryguy1981
Posted: Monday, July 20, 2015 1:20:46 PM
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Joined: 2/16/2009
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Guess I better put forward the notion of banning Shoaneb Culu since they were able to take down Bane in my last tournament game pretty handily. Ban Shoaneb! ...
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