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Poll Question : Should the Mouse Droid receive a change?
Choice Votes Statistics
No, learn to deal with it. 16 35.555555 %
Yes, shouldnt Block Movement 0 0.000000 %
Yes, shouldnt Provide Cover 3 6.666666 %
Yes, shouldnt Count as Closest Target 0 0.000000 %
Yes, shouldnt BM or PC 1 2.222222 %
Yes, shouldnt BM or CCT 0 0.000000 %
Yes, shouldnt PC or CCT 2 4.444444 %
Yes, shouldnt BM, PC or CCT 23 51.111111 %

Size matters not... Yes it does! Options
Caedus
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 9:52:08 AM
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Joined: 4/20/2015
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Wow! I am really sorry bringing this to a head yesterday. Just for the record the Mouse Droid from WotC is (IMO) a broken piece for the V-sets. I don't believe you can change that piece, however. I think it is a brilliant idea to ban it from V-set games and come out with a V-set droid that relays orders at a cost of 3 that cant go lower. The fact that Gha turns a high act squad into a ridiculous act squad is also an issue. with 20 points of reinforcements it has the potential to add 4 extra acts to a squad, which I believe are forgetting. Boba and the Imperial Governor didn't change the meta, Gha and the mouse droids in a swap or double swap squad did. Boba is just a Bad Beat Stick that takes advantage of a great situation.
juice man
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 9:59:04 AM
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Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
A DARPH NADER type solution comes to mind. Have a tournament: institute two changes.

1. Units may not cost less than 3pts.

2. Mouse Droids gain - "Tiny: Does not block movement, does not provide cover, does not force targeting"

When Gerry banned Daala from FrosyCon we found out the Zygerrian Slaver was a major issue also.
juice man
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 10:03:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 1/5/2009
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Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
Sithborg wrote:
It isn't a simple glossary entry. How do you define what is a tiny base or not? As small as the Mouse Droid is, it is still on the same physical size base as many other small figures. How do you distinguish one from another. And then you are adding additional complications that are NOT ON THE CARD.

Redefining base size is much, much more complicated than a simple glossary entry.
I seem to recall some Jawas on medium bases. We still know they are Jawas and thus small. (or are the medium base Jawas actually medium?)
kobayashimaru
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 10:12:13 AM
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Joined: 8/26/2011
Posts: 915
@all,
I do apologize for being verbose,
indulge me a moment longer
to be blunt -
there have been compromises increasingly the last few months -
I want to use the adjective "staggering", because these few simple errata have been like quickly pulling off the bandaid - a little painful, but then you forget you had a scrape. After Poggle, after Daala, people have mellowed, and they're trying different squads and having dare I say,
fun, when playing SWMinis. ObiKin is a sorta momentary annoyance, new Boba is ridiculous but'll be counter-able. Not too many other hotspots in VSET land otherwise.
we're all here to have as much fun as possible; which was the stated goal of this particular thread --- another in a series of threads on a related vein.

People also seem to be suffering from textrage intermittently - wilful or otherwise;
Sithborg was suggesting that the phrasing for an option "No, learn to deal with it" was a loaded-term,
a phrase with a felt connotation, which to some might imply, a perception of 'ownership',
a lack of compromise/conciliatory approach with no consultation whatsoever -
Sithborg wasn't telling anyone what they can or can't say, merely reflecting that there are some codes of conduct,
and in an unprovoked scenario where ostensibly no-one is being hostile,

where there have been increased discussion and compromises visibly made,
it could be seen as hostile, combative or somewhat aggressive to have an option phrased that way.

I can also step outside of the box just enough, to empathise somewhat with people who are suggesting that,
taking errata or variants much beyond the present area, could start to see unforeseen new meta squads or broken combos form.
that's a fair point - it's happened before a little, but I can get the chicken-and-egg,
self-defeating and vicious circularity that could happen
"We changed the mouse droid, so we had to change the x,y,z;
which then meant that p,q,r,s became "abusive" combos, so we had to ban p,q,r,s/alter p,q,r,s (because of the mouse droid, which made x,y,z... etc) this could happen, if in introducing RPG-style elements, or too complex, or by altering the sizing system, it could make that 'infinite regress happen'
cue "Chad Badya", or lamb chop "this is the song that doesn't end...".

Why am I caring?
It would be unfortunate to see a banhammer or fallout and misunderstandings occur;
especially over what Jak coined as "Mouse Leavings",
which is just a variation of NegativePlayExperience/PoorSportsPersonsShip, to abuse a feature in such a way, or to when a 'mismatch' occurs, abuse a technical superiority, it hollows the victory in competitive settings. Its 'not-Griefing", "I-can't-believe-it's-not-Greif-ing", Star Wars Minis style, one lame 2pt activation at a time. BigGrin
That's not what anyone thought would happen; certainly not the picture anyone has in mind when,
they think of "Star. Wars. Miniatures." - that's some cognitive dissonance right there,
when people are looking for blasters and lightsabers, maybe a few critters/aliens or... Vong etc,
and instead, they're hit with "That guy from 2minutes of Empire Strikes Back", "That skink-lizard from 10 seconds of the 3D animated Clone Wars tv show", "those droids from 32 seconds of Star Wars Ep IV"... |"that whole faction from books I've never read, who I can hurt with a regular squad..." that never gets old BigGrin |

Its looking to be not an "If", but "When" and "How, exactly" that something is altered about the < 5 pt range of pieces at the moment;
and the positive signs? A lot of different people are objectively arriving at similar conclusions, and the best bit?
they're coming up with easier "win-wins" to solve that.

Luckily, in the interim,
theres an informal understanding, a players agreement, which could be made.
We know we could use these 'super awesome' nukes, droids, bioweapons... but there'd be nothing left.
we know we could use those awesome 2 & 3 pt pieces in non-swarm builds... but we'll try and cut down on that.


I have to declare a bias, I am an intermittent droid-swarm player,
but, when you play a game, and can visibly see an opponent (who you want to still have a rapport with after a game is said and done),
you can visibly see the opponent's eyes roll, that precise moment where he/she/they just lose all entire interest... as if to say - "Gee, what a waste of the last ~45mins, and/or my money I bought these figures with..."
that's something I think people want to avoid, and maybe what's motivating the increased pathos on those kinds of issues.
There'd have to be a happy medium, where swarms can still sorta work, but they are defeatable too.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 10:16:21 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
Sithborg wrote:
It isn't a simple glossary entry. How do you define what is a tiny base or not? As small as the Mouse Droid is, it is still on the same physical size base as many other small figures. How do you distinguish one from another. And then you are adding additional complications that are NOT ON THE CARD.

Redefining base size is much, much more complicated than a simple glossary entry.

... It is one piece that is getting the change, that is how you distinguish one from the other. As for additional "complications", it isn't like we don't already have understood things that are not on the cards. Caamasi nobel, original krayt can shoot, mara jades lighsaber... or lack there of. Your impression is that this would create some convoluted issues, I think it makes sense and will be simple enough to remember. What versioin of SSM are we using again?

The important thing to me isn't how it is done, it is that something is done. Your going to ban the wotc mouse and print a new one with a new ability? Great! That to me is the same thing as changing the wotc piece, you are just doing it in such a way to appease your idea of leaving wotc rules alone. You want to errata the mouse and give it a new ability, sounds great.

The base classification change is just my suggestion. If you do not like it then that is fine, make a new suggestion on how we can change it or give a good reason for why nothing should be done.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 10:20:16 AM
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
Caedus wrote:
Wow! I am really sorry bringing this to a head yesterday. Just for the record the Mouse Droid from WotC is (IMO) a broken piece for the V-sets. I don't believe you can change that piece, however. I think it is a brilliant idea to ban it from V-set games and come out with a V-set droid that relays orders at a cost of 3 that cant go lower. The fact that Gha turns a high act squad into a ridiculous act squad is also an issue. with 20 points of reinforcements it has the potential to add 4 extra acts to a squad, which I believe are forgetting. Boba and the Imperial Governor didn't change the meta, Gha and the mouse droids in a swap or double swap squad did. Boba is just a Bad Beat Stick that takes advantage of a great situation.

This has been in discussion for quite some time. This was on the agenda for after the rapport poll whether or not it was brought up. As for the mouse+gha, my double swap squad could get up to 25 acts with only 1 mouse and without gha. The issue in my opinion is not gha-nakt, but that is a conversation for a different thread.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 10:21:12 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
juice man wrote:
A DARPH NADER type solution comes to mind. Have a tournament: institute two changes.

1. Units may not cost less than 3pts.

2. Mouse Droids gain - "Tiny: Does not block movement, does not provide cover, does not force targeting"

When Gerry banned Daala from FrosyCon we found out the Zygerrian Slaver was a major issue also.


I would be all for it, taking care of these issues in floor rules is just fine by me!
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 11:32:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Los Angeles, California
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.
Sithborg
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 11:32:25 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator, Rules Guy

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
juice man wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
It isn't a simple glossary entry. How do you define what is a tiny base or not? As small as the Mouse Droid is, it is still on the same physical size base as many other small figures. How do you distinguish one from another. And then you are adding additional complications that are NOT ON THE CARD.

Redefining base size is much, much more complicated than a simple glossary entry.
I seem to recall some Jawas on medium bases. We still know they are Jawas and thus small. (or are the medium base Jawas actually medium?)


Medium base Jawas are still Medium. Even the one Yoda, I believe.
DarthMaim
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 11:43:23 AM
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Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Los Angeles, California
In topic re: mouse droids a few months back, I proposed an idea that cover bonus from other minis only be granted to minis of same base size or larger. Just an idea for the discussion.

Hey, here's a cool special ability that popped in my head :

Roar of the Wookie: All mouse droids within 6, must retreat 6 squares in the opposite direction.

What do you guys think? I think it's got great flavor :)
Ewasomeer
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 12:43:37 PM
Rank: Ewok
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Joined: 6/6/2013
Posts: 1
I haven't heard many complaints - if any! - from our NZ players, and there's over 20 of us.
kezzamachine
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 12:45:50 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 9/23/2008
Posts: 1,487
Location: Lower the Hutt, New Zealand
Ha! Sorry guys, the above post *supposedly by Ewasomeer* was actually by me - he had logged in on my computer to make a squad and I typed out my post without realising. Appolgies! *egg*

On the plus side, now Ewasomeer has made his first post!
theultrastar
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 1:16:31 PM
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Joined: 4/12/2010
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Around 14 of us in TN, some of us are more vocal than others, but none of us enjoy how the mice are currently in the game.
jak
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 1:59:34 PM
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Joined: 10/17/2010
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Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
why worry about the difficulty of changing BlooMilk to reflect any MSD errata?
the lack of updates to this site is very, very, sad.Sad
I know Sweiny is a mod on Gamers, and is involved in the Vsets, plus any real life issues.
I wonder if someone else may have the time and skill to help out.
Bloo can not be run by a single person, perhaps it's time for some help.Cool


sorry for the derail,but at least ya'll read it
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 2:13:38 PM
Rank: Moderator
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Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
jak wrote:
why worry about the difficulty of changing BlooMilk to reflect any MSD errata?
the lack of updates to this site is very, very, sad.Sad
I know Sweiny is a mod on Gamers, and is involved in the Vsets, plus any real life issues.
I wonder if someone else may have the time and skill to help out.
Bloo can not be run by a single person, perhaps it's time for some help.Cool


sorry for the derail,but at least ya'll read it


Lack of volunteers is not the issue.
atmsalad
Posted: Friday, August 7, 2015 3:59:17 PM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/26/2011
Posts: 951
jak wrote:
why worry about the difficulty of changing BlooMilk to reflect any MSD errata?
the lack of updates to this site is very, very, sad.Sad
I know Sweiny is a mod on Gamers, and is involved in the Vsets, plus any real life issues.
I wonder if someone else may have the time and skill to help out.
Bloo can not be run by a single person, perhaps it's time for some help.Cool


sorry for the derail,but at least ya'll read it

Give it some time, I am sure everything will be sorted out. In the mean time don't derail the thread jak! ;)
jak
Posted: Saturday, August 8, 2015 5:22:24 PM
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Joined: 10/17/2010
Posts: 3,682
Location: Beggers Canyon Tatooine
hey frenchy! don't you derail my derailFlapper

ps.......I've waited years for some updates that use happened as soon as sets were releashedCrying
Sithborg
Posted: Saturday, August 8, 2015 6:49:14 PM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator, Rules Guy

Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 3:16:59 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/27/2008
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Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.



Why would you say "never" to a democratic vote? Sorry man, this statement make no sense. Confused
DarthMaim
Posted: Sunday, August 9, 2015 3:49:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Los Angeles, California
Sithborg wrote:
DarthMaim wrote:
I think here in America, democracy rules. As we all can see, so far there is clearly a majority of players that want a mouse droid change. I will also state, on behalf of the 12 players in our playgroup here in California, 11 aren't voting in this poll, all 12 can't stand mouse droids giving cover.


The rules will never be up for democratic vote. Changing the Mouse Droid is one thing, change the base size rules is out of the question.



And, also sorry to say, you sound more like a "Dictator" than a "Moderator".
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