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Darth_Reignir wrote:TheHutts wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:Few bones have been thrown the way of those who point out power creep and when a bone is thrown, it is done behind closed doors, on a site that is dominated by people who don't like criticism, and the end result is nearly indistinguishable. But an almost entirely WOTC squad (just had two 5 point Spaarti Troopers from the first v-set) made the final of GenCon. It's difficult to argue that power creep is the major issue. You are ignoring all the other tournaments. I know there was one, I can't remember which but I think it was WI, that was dominated by Lothal. Before that it was Caedus. Before that it was Bane. Before that it was Snowtroopers. C'mon. I apologize for the aggression in my tone. That's not what I am trying to do, but I do get passionate about this. I just want someone to listen for once. If I didn't care about the game, I wouldn't be here talking to y'all, knowing full well that I am going to get upset and probably attacked. It is true that players play the newer pieces. This has happened since the dawn of time including the WOTC era. When Alliance and Empire came out everyone was using Princess Leia, the Landspeeder, Storm Commandos, etc. Same for TFU which introduced Ozzel. Then Legacy came out and gave us Dodonna, Kel Dor, Nyna, Bothan Noble, Han GH, Kyle Battlemaster, etc. Then Kotor gave us tarpals, panaka, and gungans as well as some other stuff. Clone wars started the insane WOTC powercreep with Kybuck, GG DAC, Lancer, Rex, etc. After that we got Potty Palps, Arica, Dash, Crix from IE. JA didn't offer a whole lot at the time, but GAW gave us Cad Bane, General Skywalker and Whorm, followed by the rodian brute in Dark Times. MOTF was basically WOTC just mailing it in besides the final piece for the NR, Ganner. It isn't surprising that when a new regional season comes around, it has lots of the new pieces. Looking at last years regional season (and gencon season) I don't think that somehow Durge on Speeder or Single Swap Boba or any of those other squads are somehow bad now. I just think that people wanted to play new and interesting things.
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Darth_Reignir wrote: But a 45pt. Vader that can be reduced to 35? Really? You don't see a problem there?
I mean, no, not just that on its own. I genuinely, absolutely don't see how that can be a problem based just on its point value. I don't even understand the argument you're making. Is the rapport too high? Is there a specific squad that is overwhelmingly powerful with Vader? What if he lost Speed 8, Twin Attack, Battle Ready, and Shien Style? Would that make him not a problem? I'm not just being defensive, I just truly do not understand what your argument is. It is not as obvious as you seem to think it is. I absolutely agree that some things need to change (or, more truthfully, needed to change 2 years ago). I don't agree, however, that the problem is just "power creep", and you aren't now and (since you've mentioned that you've made this argument in the past) haven't in the past made that point in a convincing manner. If your goal here isn't to actually make that point, and is to just point out that you have tried to make that point in the past, that's fine. That's a valid thing for you to say. We don't have to go around and around any more (I don't particularly want to and I get the impression that you don't either), so I'm willing to just drop it and chalk it up to differences of opinions.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Echo24 wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:TheHutts wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:Few bones have been thrown the way of those who point out power creep and when a bone is thrown, it is done behind closed doors, on a site that is dominated by people who don't like criticism, and the end result is nearly indistinguishable. But an almost entirely WOTC squad (just had two 5 point Spaarti Troopers from the first v-set) made the final of GenCon. It's difficult to argue that power creep is the major issue. You are ignoring all the other tournaments. I know there was one, I can't remember which but I think it was WI, that was dominated by Lothal. Before that it was Caedus. Before that it was Bane. Before that it was Snowtroopers. C'mon. I apologize for the aggression in my tone. That's not what I am trying to do, but I do get passionate about this. I just want someone to listen for once. If I didn't care about the game, I wouldn't be here talking to y'all, knowing full well that I am going to get upset and probably attacked. What would be better? Should primarily WotC squads be dominating most tournaments? I don't care enough about Bloomilk drama anymore to attack you, so don't take it that way, but in this thread you have just been pointing at things you are declaring to be problems with no firm evidence and offering no solutions. If the WI regional had many squads that featured Vader of Lothal, why specifically is that a problem? What is the solution? I think the primary reason these discussions get out of hand in general is that one side declares that thing X is a problem but gives no strong evidence that it's a problem or solutions for it and dismisses any possibility that they might be wrong. The other side then often dismisses the declared problem out of hand, because without any real, firm, and realistic suggestions about why thing X is a problem or how to fix it, it's hard to have a real conversation. So that said, instead of you just declaring things as problems and the other side saying that it isn't a problem, lets get more granular and figure out specific problems and specific solutions. That would be a lot better than just declaring "There are problems and there have been for years". Edited to add: It's nice that you admit that there is an aggression in your tone; you're right, there is, and it makes your points much, much more difficult to take seriously. The aggression from my tone comes from the exasperation in trying to bring these points across. I really am sorry, that is not my intention. I understand you want evidence. It's a fair request. I cannot provide documentation of every game I have played with my group over the summer. But we all know that there are outstanding issues with the sets, and these problems rear their heads 2 or 3 times a year. Asking for evidence is essentially shutting down the discussion and ignoring that the problem exists. Sorry, I can't provide that kind of evidence. If you want to ignore me based on that, well, there's nothing I can do. With regards to Lothal, obviously the top being being all Lothal-centered is a problem. It tells us that Lothal is insanely overpowered. Solutions could include upping the point cost, editting his stats, removing features. We've done it with Daala, it can be done with others. I don't want to rehash it all. There is plenty we can do to make the game more balanced. I, as well as others, have offered ideas before. I can't off the top of my head list every change I would make to every character, but it has been listed in previous threads. If you would like, I can compile a list and get back to you. But every time I have done that, it has been promptly ignored, so I've stopped keeping notes on what I would change because I feel as though their is no use in doing so. For this issue, I do have evidence: The Results of the balance committee. A private, opaque process where the community was not involved, wherein the designers of the very pieces in question along with others who abuse the very problems that were supposed to be address were in charge of making decisions. That was a serious problem, and it should not take overwhelming analytical evidence to see how that might have outraged the community. It just takes empathy. With regards to Lothal specifically. It is just a pure coincidence that 3 of the 8 players who attended WI decided to play him. There were certainly regionals where no one played him. In fact, no one played him in the champs.
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Look, I'm going to say something and if I am way off, I apologize. I played this game a while ago and got away from it. I came back to it a couple years ago and have gotten very into the "competitive" side of the game. Not once in my entire time back to the game have I been treated like my thoughts don't matter. Not once have I ever brought any concern or question up to any player/designer ie; Jason, Mike G. Greg, Tim B, Jim, Les, Bryan, Laura or Lou and been dismissed. Jason and I, as well as Tim and I, talked at length about the perceived power creep of a couple of pieces and they listened to what I said and, most importantly, I listened to what they said. Since Day 1 That I have been a member of this site, Darth Reignir, you have been nothing but passive/aggressive about perceived grievances, you fail to mention anything specific and have no solutions to help with what you think is wrong. You pi$$ and moan like a Third Grader and then when someone calls you out on it you give some self-serving comment and then "take your ball and go home." Boo Hoo dude, grow up.
This is your quote. "How exactly do you expect to win people over when that sort of mentality pervades the tournament community? What is the sense in making a team and competing when there are a handful of pieces (BAFH, Lothal, Bane, Critdu,) who utterly ruin the experience?"
It's a competitive game. First off you make a better squad than the other guy. Then you play better than your opponent. THAT is how you generally win. Second, for your information, The Indiana Regional was dominated by VoL and none of those squads made the top 4. I only saw BFAH in one squad and it was beaten mostly BECAUSE it was in the squad. Critdu was in a few squads to some varying degrees and successes, but I don't believe it was in a winning squad this year. IN FACT, the number of different squads that won regionals this year suggests that the balance of power is very good right now. It is always a meta decision when picking squads. It happens, people win, people lose. It's life.
On to important matters, IMHO, I would personally like to see the Championships on Fri or Sat. Most Regional Champs are on Saturdays, why not "The National Championships? Thanks for your time guys
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
With regards to Lothal, obviously the top being being all Lothal-centered is a problem. It tells us that Lothal is insanely overpowered. Solutions could include upping the point cost, editting his stats, removing features. We've done it with Daala, it can be done with others.
I guess it's not obvious to me that that's a problem. TheHutts made a strong point to this, that people like playing new stuff, and that's especially true of major characters like new Vaders. I think a single set of regional results having lots of Vader of Lothal makes it clear that A) many people, including very good players, wanted to play the piece and B) he is a strong piece. I just don't agree that it's "obvious" that he is a "problem", and I genuinely believe it would be a mistake that would hurt the game if we re-balanced pieces whenever they were heavily used/successful at tournaments. It's unfortunate that we disagree on this point and that it might prevent your group from enjoying the game as much as you could. I'm willing to acknowledge that yes, making a change to VoL and pieces like him (ones that are very successful competitively) could improve the game for you and your group. I just also believe that making changes like that would hurt the game as a whole. Again, I agree with you that things aren't and haven't been perfect. But that doesn't mean that they're the worst they could be. Just because "clearly something needs to change" doesn't mean that your proposed change is the one that needs to be made. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you're right. But, sorry, I just don't see it.
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I know I was super bummed that I wasn't able to attend. My blasted knee cost me nearly 3 months of work and made it hard for me have the funds to take the time off. I'm saving early this season so I'll be able to come next year. Hopefully I can get my knee fixed this year. And be done with it for good.
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With the Later Start in 2017, it now fits into my schedule. I will definitely be there. I'll have another player coming along to Regionals next year as well.(Hopefully I can make a few more)
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Regarding the day of the championship, also consider that for a lot of people GenCon isn't all (or even primarily) about SWM. Many people want to get in the dealer hall ASAP on Thursday to check out new board games, especially stuff that is being pre-sold there and will sell out. Mansions of Madness 2e got released at GenCon this year, for example, and if I were there I would have been mighty tempted to miss the championship to get in line to get that to be sure I got myself a copy.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:I can remember the last time this became an issue, someone (not naming names but I do know the persons in question, said: "I didn't want to play super cheesey, but I really wanted to win." This person was in the upper eschelons of the Design group.
How exactly do you expect to win people over when that sort of mentality pervades the tournament community? What is the sense in making a team and competing when there are a handful of pieces (BAFH, Lothal, Bane, Critdu,) who utterly ruin the experience?
There are 5 of us in the Quad Cities who would love to be part of the community. 5/12 is a big percentage. We're well within driving distance of GenCon. But why should we bother showing up when we get cheesed out of having fun? Read the comments on the FB page. We aren't alone. The Legends guys are a key example. Our group used to be 10 strong but half of them quit because of the V-Set.
I've been fighting this fight for years. year after year, it's the same thing. Year after year, myself and those who feel the way I do are put down. Year after year, attendance rates drop. And you can't figure out why? That alone is proof that you hardly listen to the community. So Darth_Reignir, if you were in charge, what would you do to fix the game. Talk is cheap, so list concrete items and solutions, as to how to fix the game, and bring back the "Legends" of the past, etc. Is all completely lost, and is the game totally dead, and going to go away forever? Or is there a chance to save it? Help us Obi-Wan-Kenobi, you're our only hope........................................
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Day of champs is certainly under consideration. At this points (same as every year) I think everything is under consideration.
Problem with Saturday is that we really don't want to compete with Imperial Assault Champs. There are some in our community who do both and I believe that most would choose IA since it is an in print game. I could be wrong.
I could certainly see changing champs to Friday if more people thought they personally would attend.
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Echo24 wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote: But a 45pt. Vader that can be reduced to 35? Really? You don't see a problem there?
I mean, no, not just that on its own. I genuinely, absolutely don't see how that can be a problem based just on its point value. I don't even understand the argument you're making. Is the rapport too high? Is there a specific squad that is overwhelmingly powerful with Vader? What if he lost Speed 8, Twin Attack, Battle Ready, and Shien Style? Would that make him not a problem? I'm not just being defensive, I just truly do not understand what your argument is. It is not as obvious as you seem to think it is. I absolutely agree that some things need to change (or, more truthfully, needed to change 2 years ago). I don't agree, however, that the problem is just "power creep", and you aren't now and (since you've mentioned that you've made this argument in the past) haven't in the past made that point in a convincing manner. If your goal here isn't to actually make that point, and is to just point out that you have tried to make that point in the past, that's fine. That's a valid thing for you to say. We don't have to go around and around any more (I don't particularly want to and I get the impression that you don't either), so I'm willing to just drop it and chalk it up to differences of opinions. Only with a 100pt Darth Sidious. I see no problem with that. The problem would be if you could do that with Potty Palps
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Games like this constantly lose players. A player's favorite squad/deck gets nerfed - they move on. A player finds another game - they move on. A player gets bored with a stagnant meta - they move on. While 'living', the games also gain players. It's far more difficult for SWM to gain players, but it does happen.
Ideally 'Learn to Play' would lead to more players in other tournaments. I know at least one player from Learn to Play came back for sealed, but I don't know how common that is.
20+ squads could have won GenCon this year. If there are problem pieces, they are offset by other problem pieces.
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I think that the point that GenCon is not solely about SWM for most people is people is completeLy valid. However if you put the championship on a Friday or Saturday - that forces people to prioritize it over other games. The cold hard truth of the matter is there's a lot more going on Friday and Saturday at GenCon than any other days. Very little tournament wise happens on Thursday. Personally I was playing in another games' championship on both Friday and Saturday. I know Deri was as well. We will lose more players than we can gain by having it on a Friday or Saturday.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Defensive Stance, Hostage Shield, blanket LSD -- all those were great ideas that really helped. But a 45pt. Vader that can be reduced to 35? Really? You don't see a problem there? There has to be a balance, and so far it feels like the direction design has been doing is like a heavy pendulum, wildly swinging from Shooters to Melee and back. I don't think Melee have ever been dominant in star wars miniatures, they've just gone between having parity with shooters at some points to being hopelessly outclassed at others. I do think the balance committee had some very positive impacts on the meta this year - weakening abusive non-uniques and getting rid of 2 point pieces has generally resulted in lower activation squads. This has helped pieces you mention like Bane, Mace, and Caedus, but I don't think they're at all dominant.
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I have a few comments to share about the SWM Championship attendance this year:
1. Thanks, Laura, for bringing up this topic for discussion. We need actual attendance if we are going to continue to do this as a community.
2. I was very disappointed by the low turnout for the SWM Championship. I guess I was the "Champion" this year, and that was cool and all, but if our premier competitive event only draws 12 players then maybe it's time to call it quits? It might be a topic for another thread, but if this is the attendance we get for our premier competitive event, then I think that raises the question of how many more V-Sets to produce. There, I said it. Is it time to pull the plug? I spoke with some former SWM guys (all excellent players) and asked if anyone would like to step in and take my spot in the 200pt Team event (using my ticket for free), but nobody was interested...partially because they hadn't played in a while, partially because they had moved on from the game and no longer enjoyed it as they once had, and partially because they'd rather go out for hamburgers. I myself still enjoy the game, but I can count on one hand the number of times that I've played SWM since GenCon 2015 a year ago: FrostyCon at Jak's house (which I attended just as much for the friends as for the game), the PA Regional at Jim's house (again, friends were the draw), and the Vassal Regional (which I ran)...that's 3 days of SWM gaming in 12 months, more or less. In contrast, I used to play 3-5 games on Vassal per week, all year long. If our premier competitive event barely draws a dozen players, then I think we need to talk. I was hoping for ~20 this year. Sadly, I think this trend started 2 years ago, when there were only 6-8 people in the Jedi Challenge; that was the last year for that combo of events, which had regularly drawn 20+ people each year before that. People are moving on and playing different games now; such is the way of things in the gaming world.
3. I'm not saying that you should set the date for the SWM Championship based on my schedule, but as one of the players who did play in it this year, moving it to Saturday would've certainly kept me out, since the IA Championship was that day (and was on Saturday last year too), and it's by far my favorite game now. Basically, I look for GenCon events in this order: Imperial Assault Championship > SWM Championship > IA events of any kind > SWM Epic > SWM Team events > maybe other SWM events, if they fit. Then, after I've filled my SW slots I start to look at other events I might be interested in. To hold the SWM Championship on Saturday (which is the premier day of gaming) would likely decrease our attendance for SWM, since many players would encounter scheduling conflicts. Friday might be a good day for the SWM Championship, but it would be good to research that with all of our potential players first.
4. Perhaps next year, before submitting our events to GenCon, it would be worthwhile to post an informal sign-up list or poll here on BM, to see how many people would plan on attending the SWM Championship that summer. [Might want to do this for other events too, like Epic, etc.] Give people a chance to say what days work and don't work for them. I think that all 12 of our players at this year's Championship were known people from the community, so it's not like we'd be alienating potential attendees. We could even have a list that people could sign up on, to receive a BlooMail notification when that poll is posted (this to prevent infrequent forum visitors from missing the poll). Just a thought. Give the SWM Championship another year and see how 2017 goes.
5. Regarding balance in SWM right now: dude, the meta is totally wide open! Lou and I made a list of what was played this year, and out of 12 players, I think it was either 8 or 9 factions being represented. Anything could've won.
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Personally, I think a move to Fri. For the champs might not be a bad thing. I know it might even help me be able to attend on more than 1 day and therefore increase my chances to play in additional SWM events which would be great as well. I do feel like it's a real shame that some people were clearly there on Thur. And chose not to play in the champs, some im sure had legit reasons and would have loved to have been able to play and that's a loss for everyone. I can also think of at least three usual attendees that didn't make it do to life events that happened and hopefully we'll get to see them again next year. As for solutions to help boost attendance, that's a hard nut to crack, but I know that I for one would be super excited to have the opportunity to win a full set of the new v-set customs that et released at gencon, and as someone who has helped and will continue to help with the customs if asked, I would certainly be willing to do 1 more than is needed for the sealed to help facilitate that if that is a viable option. As for the feeling of some who have posted on here that v-set pieces are OP and terribly broken and dominating the meta, I say to you that of course people are going to play The exciting new piece that jus came out. However, with PDFs and cards pretty readily available everyone should have reasonable access to the same pieces and can build to win against whatever is hot in the meta. A perfect example is at the Indiana regional this year there were three people running VoL (the hot new piece in case you were wondering), and none of them made top 4 mainly due to the fact that a few of the other competitors chose to include Marn hierogryph, a piece that was released several sets ago that would enable them to nerf the force batteries of the VoL squads through the use of Marns conartist SA. They made the correct meta call and consequently the VoL squads had a rough go of it. I have yet to see a single V-set piece be unbeatable by itself and when the meta has been significantly warped by a squad type or specific piece the community has responded by creating a balance team and making important errata to improve the meta so where you get the idea that community input isn't acted upon baffles me unless it's just that you are unhappy that it didn't go exactly the way that you wished. Very rarely is everyone happy, but the effort to make things the best they can be for the most people is what I believe we should be aiming for.
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So, having never been to GenCon (or a Minis tournament of any sort), maybe this is way off, but would it be all that bad of an idea to have the Championship outside of GenCon? Not physically outside, but independent of GenCon? Day after GenCon? I suppose there's a lot of infrastructure missing there, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.
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thereisnotry wrote:
2. I was very disappointed by the low turnout for the SWM Championship. I guess I was the "Champion" this year, and that was cool and all, but if our premier competitive event only draws 12 players then maybe it's time to call it quits? It might be a topic for another thread, but if this is the attendance we get for our premier competitive event, then I think that raises the question of how many more V-Sets to produce. There, I said it. Is it time to pull the plug? I spoke with some former SWM guys (all excellent players) and asked if anyone would like to step in and take my spot in the 200pt Team event (using my ticket for free), but nobody was interested...partially because they hadn't played in a while, partially because they had moved on from the game and no longer enjoyed it as they once had, and partially because they'd rather go out for hamburgers. I myself still enjoy the game, but I can count on one hand the number of times that I've played SWM since GenCon 2015 a year ago: FrostyCon at Jak's house (which I attended just as much for the friends as for the game), the PA Regional at Jim's house (again, friends were the draw), and the Vassal Regional (which I ran)...that's 3 days of SWM gaming in 12 months, more or less. In contrast, I used to play 3-5 games on Vassal per week, all year long. If our premier competitive event barely draws a dozen players, then I think we need to talk. I was hoping for ~20 this year. Sadly, I think this trend started 2 years ago, when there were only 6-8 people in the Jedi Challenge; that was the last year for that combo of events, which had regularly drawn 20+ people each year before that. People are moving on and playing different games now; such is the way of things in the gaming world.
You're not alone in these thoughts. I think TJ's points about how an out of print game like SWM loses players but doesn't gain them is a huge part of it. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm afraid we haven't done as much as we could have to prevent this, either. Go click around www.swmgamers.com, http://www.starwarsccg.org, and www.trekcc.org and you might see what I mean. I'm not sure what could be done to reverse the trend now, but I do think squabbling over design and what is or isn't broken or OP isn't what's gonna help. ETA: I'm afraid that what I said might be interpreted as a slight to Les Eller, who did a TON of work getting swmgamers.com looking as good as it does now. Les is great and did great work with it. I'm more pointing out the lack of content and support of the site, which Les couldn't have done himself.
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Reading this gives me a headache.
We have problems; no kidding. But how did a thread about Gen Con turn into the inevitable argument about "you're not listening/You're not hearing me?"
Come on guys, we're all trying to do the best we can; even snakes run out of venom.
Back on topic, so how Did some of the other events fair? Winner? Composition of squads? Any correlation to who won with what compared to the Regionals, etc.
EDIT: Yes I noticed after I posted that we Have gone back on topic, and thanks.
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surf_rider56 wrote:Back on topic, so how Did some of the other events fair? Winner? Composition of squads? Any correlation to who won with what compared to the Regionals, etc. The primary trend in Regionals this year was that Urbanjedi won almost all of them. I think the game in and of itself is at a much better place than it's been for a while, but all the negative energy around Bloomilk (especially post GenCon last year) and the natural attrition of an out of print game is taking its toll on numbers. It's been 6 and a half years since the game stopped, so what the community has achieved has been a success, but echo24 definitely has some points about making our web resources more focused on new users.
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