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When is a Squad problem? Options
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:00:18 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
There is a big push to change even the old NPE. Constantly Strafe, Daala, Swap and Vong are considered in design and how the new squads can compete. However, an argument for not changing some OP aspect of the game because we haven't changed some other OP aspect of the game is just dumb.

Disclaimer, everything we have talked about I want changed as well. I help to construct a list of over 20 characters to be looked at by the balance committee.

Some of the most unfun games I have had were when I was running or playing against swap, Daala or Strafe. In saying that reserves is BS I am not saying this other crap is okay. I'm saying I want to limit power creep and change it to.



except....we have years of these things being an npe we have 5 hours of reserves being an npe.

edit:

I wish whoever deals with this luck on fixing all these issues I really do, I am currently playtesting and stuff to try and help with the future of the game, but I think, personally, more drastic changes then what others would accept are necessary.. the game is to far gone to balance 20 pieces without HUGE swings and it would lead to some other huge problems, want to fix strafe great we have 29 act ewok squads dropping 40+ we have bespin guards dropping 80-120 I believe is possible.

Caedus
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:13:18 PM
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gholli69 wrote:
I'm aware reserves and disintigration have been around for quite some time, but those abilities are only fun for the person running the squad.


But isn't that by definition 50% of the people playing the game? Of course it's only fun for the one running the squad. Being strafed is only fun for the strafe, same thing when someone with a 8-12 activation balanced type squad sits down and their opponent drops 20+ activations with tempo control, probably only fun for the guy with the massive activation count in that case. I'm not saying that all these things need to be nerfed or eliminated from the game mind you, just highlighting the fact that there are always going to be matchups that you personally find to be an NPE. I personally hate going up against 20+ activation with tempo control, but I haven't ever called for that to be nerfed, even though it seems to be a popular choice for lots of players. I would love to see some sort of hard activation cap instituted but I also understand that some people really enjoy that play style so who am. I to tell them they shouldn't play that way because I don't enjoy it!


+ 1 on everything but the activation cap nonsense.Woot
atmsalad
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:18:49 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
except....we have years of these things being an npe we have 5 hours of reserves being an npe.

edit:

I wish whoever deals with this luck on fixing all these issues I really do, I am currently playtesting and stuff to try and help with the future of the game, but I think, personally, more drastic changes then what others would accept are necessary.. the game is to far gone to balance 20 pieces without HUGE swings and it would lead to some other huge problems, want to fix strafe great we have 29 act ewok squads dropping 40+ we have bespin guards dropping 80-120 I believe is possible.


Hey I'm right there with you, but one thing we need to note is that we have never made drastic changes to WotC pieces (Mouse Droid Exception). Most of the people that would completely shut you down for suggesting such a travesty, changing WotC pieces, have moved on though. So I think we could be getting close to seeing some real change.

In the end we all want the same thing, a great game to keep getting better.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 1:32:22 PM
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what need are a few good abilities like:


Scramble Signals: Suppresses relay orders and booming voice on all allied characters and enemy characters.

H.U.D. Modification: This character can target characters with cloaked or stealth regardless of cover or if they are the nearest enemy.

wording sucks but I will add some more later
atmsalad
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:02:37 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
what need are a few good abilities like:


Scramble Signals: Suppresses relay orders and booming voice on all allied characters and enemy characters.

H.U.D. Modification: This character can target characters with cloaked or stealth regardless of cover or if they are the nearest enemy.

wording sucks but I will add some more later


I understand cloaked squads are a pain, but if you create counters to cloaked and SS you make shooters in general much better and more playable. Not an absolute, but something to think about...
gholli69
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:03:00 PM
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When I think of an activation limit, I think more in terms of activations per round. I think you should be able to include whatever you can into a squad, but perhaps only being able to activate say 15 characters in any 1 round maybe reasonable. It would help speed some games up and make the high activation player choose what he wants to use most in that round with the possibility that his other activations may have to just spin where they are and face the possible consequences at the start of the next round.I dont want to limit squad building, but having a more level playing field as far as activation counts goes may be something to investigate.
I
gholli69
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:04:44 PM
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The number of 15 acts is subjective btw just picked a number that seemed reasonable to me.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:14:23 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
what need are a few good abilities like:


Scramble Signals: Suppresses relay orders and booming voice on all allied characters and enemy characters.

H.U.D. Modification: This character can target characters with cloaked or stealth regardless of cover or if they are the nearest enemy.

wording sucks but I will add some more later


I understand cloaked squads are a pain, but if you create counters to cloaked and SS you make shooters in general much better and more playable. Not an absolute, but something to think about...




Shooters are easier to counter then cloaked blast bugs and junk.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 2:50:16 PM
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gholli69 wrote:
When I think of an activation limit, I think more in terms of activations per round. I think you should be able to include whatever you can into a squad, but perhaps only being able to activate say 15 characters in any 1 round maybe reasonable.


It is something that might seem good in theory, but doesn't work in reality. It actually creates bigger problems.

What ends up happening is that most people shoot for that number, and it creates standoffs. The first one to get aggressive usually loses.

What naturally happens with no activation cap (if the game is balanced) is that squads with lower activations are more powerful and can take what a high act squad dishes out and still be able to do their thing - if played well. The high act squad can eventually wear down the low act squad if played well.

Again - this is if the game is balanced. Is ours right now? I actually think it is close. MUCH closer than it was 2 years ago. 1/2 of the top 8 last year were melee focused squads, and a couple more were blended (melee and shooters) A 7 act squad won it. That doesn't seem like it's way off balance. Compare that to 2 years ago.

Low act and high act squads can compete right now, if they are build well and played well.

It's a fantasy to say that anything should be able to compete. It's downright impossible, and impractical to even try. Should we try to have every faction have something to help them compete? Heck yeah! (wait till ya see Ven Zallow!) But just because someone likes x type of squad - doesn't mean they automatically get a top tier squad for it.

It's false to say that just because I don't like x and you don't like y that means x=y. It's comparing apples and oranges, and it's too simplistic and inaccurate of an argument. There are many factors that go into deciding if something needs a counter, how tough of a counter it should have, if the balance committee should take action on a piece, etc.

Tournament dominance is certainly part of it, but so are other factors. NPE level, designer intent, counters available, etc.

If someone finds a broken combo - don't you think it's best to nip it in the bud before it drives half the community away. We waited and sat on our hands to change Daala for far too long. It crippled our community and people quit the game in droves. We don't want that to happen again.
blemelisk
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:08:18 PM
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Forgive me, I keep seeing it and dont know what it stands for. What is NPE?Confused
General_Grievous
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:14:15 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Reserves is simply unnecessary in the competitive game. Period.

The examples above and many many more prove it.

Having a casual game where someone wants to play reserves is perfectly fine, but it causing a massive swings on a single die roll in competitive games is a detriment to Star Wars Miniatures.

There is already plenty of luck inherent in our game. Reserves compounding that exponentially is completely unnecessary.



same with standing in the starting zone flipping 10 pieces until I am out then running something 12-18 and swapping in a piece and attacking me.





Or out activating someone... And then strafing their whole squad without being able to attack back. Or having Force Immune characters that can do damage without any luck what so ever, it just happens. Tons of things in this game are NPEs. Reserves are probably last on my list, mainly because they are more luck based than anything, and the pieces that have them are usually pretty easy to take out.


Luke and Leia on the other hand, thats a tough piece to take out, throw in K3 and the Keeper, and you now have board wide swap. R2 +2 attack, and I'm sure I could come up with some other weird interactions.

Lancers can be pawned, so you can strafe twice.

Every Vehicle that was ever made.

Vong Blast Bugs

Every Imperial squad thats competitive.

Darth Zannah

I'll take my chances against Pong/Kazdan any day of the week rather than facing ANY Vong squad. I'll Kaan Bomb them, and be on my way.

I don't have any issue with Reserve squads, and I actually love the fact the Kazdan can counter strafe by bringing in those droids. Mainly because I HATE strafe squads.


+1 to all but the vehicle bit haha.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:18:33 PM
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blemelisk wrote:
Forgive me, I keep seeing it and dont know what it stands for. What is NPE?Confused



Negative play experience
gholli69
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:19:18 PM
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I do understand that and activation limit may be impractical otherwise I probably would have been more vocal about the possibility before now. It still wouldn't help when someone runs tempo control for one thing, and I do agree that the meta has improved over the last couple seasons. I do feel like there has been more of a trend towards hyper awareness of successfulness lately where it seems like if something wins an event or has some success there is a rush to judge whether or not it's the next Dalaaesque piece and I don't know if that's where we should be either. For example, when BAFH first came out there was a huge backlash against broken boba, but now a couple years later, yes he is still very very good , but I don't think the initial outcry was warranted.
atmsalad
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:28:51 PM
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Boba isn't broken, but is he one poster child for power creep? Absolutely, toss him and Jangolore in the same bucket...
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:47:20 PM
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One major issue with the latest reserves squad is not that it won, or not even that there were major complaints. It's that it highlighted a loophole that was never intended.

The math was supposed to be around 25% chance. It says it repeatedly in the design thread for Pong Krell.

This squad gets up to a 74% chance.


Looking at the intent and the actual math result is a giant disparity.


That is the issue.
blemelisk
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:54:55 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
blemelisk wrote:
Forgive me, I keep seeing it and dont know what it stands for. What is NPE?Confused



Negative play experience


Thanks!



I havent played competitively for a VERY long time. I dont actually plan on doing so ever again. My play style is for fun now, maybe having big battles on large tables etc with friends and family for an afternoon/full day of fun. This conversation isnt really for me to comment on for that reason however (from the perspective of one that played competitively and often ran tourneys):

There are new abilities coming out for new characters that are interesting, and when combined with certain new V set pieces and WoTC pieces it becomes broken.

We can either, 1: ban the piece (1b: or the ability), 2: nerf the ability, prevent it from combining with those pieces abilities that make it broken,3: or ignore it and let it be.

1: WoTC pieces should be immune from ever being banned. if a new Vset piece royally breaks a WoTC piece to the point that it needs to be banned, then the community royally messed up. If a vset piece needs to be banned then it needs to be reworked. 1b: why have the ability in the first place?

2: this is an option, with the hope of keeping the flavor and fun of the new ability intact

3: likely isnt an option at all.

The above, in a round about way also applies to squads. This also goes to power creep. With more and more pieces making Vset status, the more and more options and combinations there are and the ever increasing likelyhood of a piece becoming OP. Even in the CCC there are those that warn me of powerful combinations that play off my submission and it actually counts against my submission (even though my submission will never make a Vset and thus be legal for a tourney). It may come to a point (not now obviously, but some years down the road) that any new piece would become OP because of the existing pieces combination with it having it do 500 damage to 6 targets while on the move and ignoring cover etc etc (sarcasm) .

The other side of the coin is, how do we continue to make cool new interesting pieces of new characters while keeping the power creep either in check or (never will happen) non existent?
CorellianComedian
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 4:17:25 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
One major issue with the latest reserves squad is not that it won, or not even that there were major complaints. It's that it highlighted a loophole that was never intended.

The math was supposed to be around 25% chance. It says it repeatedly in the design thread for Pong Krell.

This squad gets up to a 74% chance.


Looking at the intent and the actual math result is a giant disparity.


That is the issue.

Wait... Pong was the last piece released necessary to the problem. Republic already had Anticipation, Recon, and even Sense the Future. It looks like the math was there for a good year before set 7 was started. EDIT: Not that mentioning it makes any progress in the conversation Blushing
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 5:03:48 PM
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CorellianComedian wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
One major issue with the latest reserves squad is not that it won, or not even that there were major complaints. It's that it highlighted a loophole that was never intended.

The math was supposed to be around 25% chance. It says it repeatedly in the design thread for Pong Krell.

This squad gets up to a 74% chance.


Looking at the intent and the actual math result is a giant disparity.


That is the issue.

Wait... Pong was the last piece released necessary to the problem. Republic already had Anticipation, Recon, and even Sense the Future. It looks like the math was there for a good year before set 7 was started. EDIT: Not that mentioning it makes any progress in the conversation Blushing


It's an embarrassing oversight.

It was brought up multiple times during design that he should only have either anticipation or sense the future, not both. But he ended up with both anyway.

It was brought up specifically by the original designer that the 25% can't really be boosted, and we just went with that. Huge oversight, huge error, we are to blame.


What finally brought to light this giant mistake - was Jason playing it this weekend. The addition of the MTB is what countered the main counter that existed, thus showing it's true potential.


believe me, a big part of my ire is knowing that I was part of the team that let that slip by.


I take my share of the blame, for sure.



Having a 74% chance of rolling reserves was NEVER intended. Or even close.
Darth_Jim
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 5:20:33 PM
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No matter what you run, if it is competitive, someone will consider it an NPE. One of mine is high activation non unique swarms. I played against one Saturday, run by ATM. He crushed me, my only loss of the day. If I could have gotten 100pts, I would have won my tiebreaker vs Ultrastar and gone into the final 4. What could I have done?

I'll tell you what I did do. I talked to ATM after the match (since he beat me SO badly we had plenty of time.) We talked about what I could do to change my squad...or playstyle...to compete with a Daala squad. We came up with some good ideas. I may revamp that squad. I may run something different. All I can say was that I felt better after our talk, even joked about how badly that squad beats mine. I also felt better about losing the tiebreaker, because I knew Ultrastar would give him a better game. Had I made it in, I would have played ATM first and I literally had no chance. All I would have had was top 4 bragging rights.

I'm ok with it. We've nerfed Daala and, while she's still good, maybe it's just a case of what I ran being a bad matchup. I'm not going to stop running fun stuff. It's a game. I'll just try and make the fun stuff good.

jen'ari
Posted: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 5:25:09 PM
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atmsalad wrote:
There is a big push to change even the old NPE. Constantly Strafe, Daala, Swap and Vong are considered in design and how the new squads can compete. However, an argument for not changing some OP aspect of the game because we haven't changed some other OP aspect of the game is just dumb.

Disclaimer, everything we have talked about I want changed as well. I help to construct a list of over 20 characters to be looked at by the balance committee.

Some of the most unfun games I have had were when I was running or playing against swap, Daala or Strafe. In saying that reserves is BS I am not saying this other crap is okay. I'm saying I want to limit power creep and change it to.


Look, I have trouble listening to people discussing changing tactics that they use on the regular.

Not going to lie, it's hard to believe that you care as much about changing act control as you do reserves.
Considering 2/3 of the time you are using high act squad with act control.

Which is fine. But act control has held a dynasty on regional first place and second place and for gencon.
It is the most powerful squad type.

And it is lame to face it... Almost every single time.

Now the people wanting reserves gone so fast were playing act control and got beat.

I think it is amazing. To have a squad that can hold it's own (at least when played by a top tier player) with the out act tactic is perfect.
It should not go anywhere until act control goes somewhere.
We should face the old problems first and do something about them first.

These new complaints from mainly two people should not hold precedent over the years of complaints from stalwart pieces of the game and community.

To continue to keep pressing for reserves change before it has proven to be an issue is to put yourself, your play style, an your priorities over the large part of the community that wants to check and balance out activation squads.

Fix the old problems and put them into account before trying to change an unproven problem that just so happens to counter your own playstyle (high activations).

I feel it is very self serving to keep pushing this agenda at this premature time
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