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adamb0nd wrote:Would huges be anymore likely to come into play? The basalisk droid might be an actual threat with twin and swap. What about any of the other ones? Or, would they, like GMLS, just fall further and further from tier 1? A good portion of huges are droids, and so would become no more playable in this format i'm sure. IDK, you could have K-3PO and Mas boosting the droids' speed and board-wide swap for non-droids. Meh, probably not.
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billiv15 wrote:GMLS would actually fall farther away from tier 1 in a metaless world - as would roughly 2/3 of all currently competitive pieces and squads.
The meta would devolve into basically:
Yodabuck
Whorm
Mas
Dodonna
and Whatever else
vs
Yodabuck
Thrawn
Mas
Dodonna
and whatever else
Most other things would be eliminated from competitive play. There would be little point in playing in that meta. What people enjoy in terms of playing "Dream Team" on occasion is that they are looking for "God Combos" not necessarily identifying and executing the top tier of that meta. As soon as you make something like this the competitive format, the game goes in the tank. Faction limitations are overall a very strong aspect of the game (whether you didn't like how WotC handled the lesser factions or thought it was about right). As usual Bill gets it right. YoBuck with Whorm/Mas and swap would be virtually unbeatable. I sort of disagree on the GMLS front thou, add Rieekan, R2 AM, Juno, and Dodonna and that is one darn hard to kill squad. tier 1? No but I think he would be more viable in some ways. Hell,vgive hom Ferus lol! One Combo I would love to see is Mara JJ, Gen Skywalker, and Thrawn. Mara at a +20 for 160 permanently is ludicrous. Everyone is understandably touting YoBuck. Han GH with Thrawn, Whorm, and say Vader Scourge would light up YoBuck like a christmas tree. The one faction that would arguably benefit most is Vong. 5xJefi Hunters, Thrawn, Advance Officer, Mas, Itjorian Commander. +17 for 60?
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joelker41 wrote:As usual Bill gets it right. YoBuck with Whorm/Mas and swap would be virtually unbeatable.
Everyone is understandably touting YoBuck. Han GH with Thrawn, Whorm, and say Vader Scourge would light up YoBuck like a christmas tree.
So, are you sayin Kybuck would stay as part of the meta, or do you think he'd be downed by 'uber-disruptive combos'. Obviously, Disruptive would be the end of him in this scenario, though I really think, as I said earlier, that Kyle would be the piece to do it best, as he could get the same support, has FP to reroll and has a higher base attack. Also as to the huges becoming more played, it would be the same problem they have now. The ones that are played now will get the same bonuses as the ones that dont get played now, meaning your still going to play the same ones for the same reasons. Sure, certain situations may arise where a different piece would work better that isnt 'meta' right now, but I wouldnt be looking for anythign to upset the top huges (Luke's SS, Felcor, X1 probably in that order)
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Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
Nom bombs with the Felcor and Opportunist thrawn....
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The simple answer is that there would be a huge drop in diversity. A lot of playable pieces suddenly cannot be played, while the cream of the crop only gets more powerful. Why play Malak when you can play GOWK? Why play Wedge or San or Ozzel when the Rebel options are there. Why bother with Mice.
In other words, you will have a meta of 3 squads if you are lucky.
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Sithborg wrote:The simple answer is that there would be a huge drop in diversity. A lot of playable pieces suddenly cannot be played, while the cream of the crop only gets more powerful. Why play Malak when you can play GOWK? Why play Wedge or San or Ozzel when the Rebel options are there. Why bother with Mice.
In other words, you will have a meta of 3 squads if you are lucky. That actually makes a lot of sense. But I think the 3 squads that would see play, would eventually be countered. For example, some distruptive+dejm so squads would end yobucks reign of terror. I think that while this is probably, theres a good chance the game would float around to counter squads in the end.
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Sithborg wrote:The simple answer is that there would be a huge drop in diversity. A lot of playable pieces suddenly cannot be played, while the cream of the crop only gets more powerful. Why play Malak when you can play GOWK? Why play Wedge or San or Ozzel when the Rebel options are there. Why bother with Mice.
In other words, you will have a meta of 3 squads if you are lucky. Yeah Virtually all activation Control would be for From Dodanna. Now i dont think that Sepratist Squads would change much other thank 3p0 boosting some of the Droids and having. Also WHen it Comes to giving an extra attack It would Most likely either be obi JG(survivabillity against ranged), The Jedi Exile(cheap extra attack for allies), or Vader LOTF(Melee defense). Although i will say that an openning would seriously Help Mandos. adding Rieekan, Twilek BSV, And Jedi Exile would make them alot better.and more people woulduse characters LIke Juno and Deena for their disruptive.
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adamb0nd wrote:Sithborg wrote:The simple answer is that there would be a huge drop in diversity. A lot of playable pieces suddenly cannot be played, while the cream of the crop only gets more powerful. Why play Malak when you can play GOWK? Why play Wedge or San or Ozzel when the Rebel options are there. Why bother with Mice.
In other words, you will have a meta of 3 squads if you are lucky. That actually makes a lot of sense. But I think the 3 squads that would see play, would eventually be countered. For example, some distruptive+dejm so squads would end yobucks reign of terror. I think that while this is probably, theres a good chance the game would float around to counter squads in the end. Accept for some reason you guys are continually assuming Yodabuck is the only figure in the squads. Did you not notice I said, "whatever else". The "whatever else", just like in current yodabuck squads is what gets you around all of the other problems. Disruptive and Djem so aren't a problem when you have a shooter backing up yoda that takes care of it. Yoda is the flexbility of the squad, not the hammer. He's the counter to all the counters. The other figures do the dirty work. There is very little chance that what you propose would happen in this. In a factionless game, the best squad would eventually be realized, and nothing else would be played. That's an opinion based on a lot of experience with these things.
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billiv15 wrote:
Accept for some reason you guys are continually assuming Yodabuck is the only figure in the squads. Did you not notice I said, "whatever else". The "whatever else", just like in current yodabuck squads is what gets you around all of the other problems.
Disruptive and Djem so aren't a problem when you have a shooter backing up yoda that takes care of it. Yoda is the flexbility of the squad, not the hammer. He's the counter to all the counters. The other figures do the dirty work.
There is very little chance that what you propose would happen in this. In a factionless game, the best squad would eventually be realized, and nothing else would be played. That's an opinion based on a lot of experience with these things.
I don't know that shooters are very useful in a world where every single unit has evade, force points, and access to mettle.
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adamb0nd wrote:billiv15 wrote:
Accept for some reason you guys are continually assuming Yodabuck is the only figure in the squads. Did you not notice I said, "whatever else". The "whatever else", just like in current yodabuck squads is what gets you around all of the other problems.
Disruptive and Djem so aren't a problem when you have a shooter backing up yoda that takes care of it. Yoda is the flexbility of the squad, not the hammer. He's the counter to all the counters. The other figures do the dirty work.
There is very little chance that what you propose would happen in this. In a factionless game, the best squad would eventually be realized, and nothing else would be played. That's an opinion based on a lot of experience with these things.
I don't know that shooters are very useful in a world where every single unit has evade, force points, and access to mettle. Any of them. Just like in the current game, you get around evade by basing, and all those points spent on preventing range damage are now wasted. If it's a General Skywalker Yoda squad, the current iterneration is using Dash specficially for this. I'm confident an open meta would figure out the best fits pretty quickly as well.
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Im sorry, but I totally disagree that GMLS would fall farther from playability.
Even Now, with Yoda Spirit, GMLS is a Beast at 135 points. Sure you can shoot him, but when you dont kill him, he will master speed to you and hit you with an inevitable twin, and then in the next round, he will beat you down with a trip/twin. Yoda enhances his rolls, namely LS Def with mettle, not to mention he can spend Yodas FPs. toss in Dodonna and some activation Fodder, and GMLS becomes far worse then GOWKs SS mastery (which was silly to remove, it was his mettle/MoTF 2 that was the problem).
All in all, its a matter of opinion when it comes to GMLS falling farther then where he is right now.
He is costly, yes, but there is a reason he is costly: Hes a 1 man squad without door control.
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To prove my point though, Play test on some tiles: Yobuck and GOWK VS. GMLS and YodaSpirit. Ive done it a bunch of times, and the outcome was always the same, Yobuck ate a Hoagie, and GOWKs SS master was no match for Djem Mastery. YodaSpirit just sits there and 
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No. There is absolutely no reason to run Grandmaster Luke, when you can run a wide, wide variety of Melee threats with Triple that you can add Evade and Twin for much, much cheaper. The problems of Luke, which is not enough points for proper support, only gets worse in this format. The stuff that beats Luke only gets stronger.
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Inquisitive Infiltrator wrote:To prove my point though, Play test on some tiles: Yobuck and GOWK VS. GMLS and YodaSpirit. Ive done it a bunch of times, and the outcome was always the same, Yobuck ate a Hoagie, and GOWKs SS master was no match for Djem Mastery. YodaSpirit just sits there and 135 vs 106. Yep, that is how the game is played. You cannot do one on one matchups to prove your point. SQUADS are how this game is played.
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Inquisitive Infiltrator wrote:To prove my point though, Play test on some tiles: Yobuck and GOWK VS. GMLS and YodaSpirit. Ive done it a bunch of times, and the outcome was always the same, Yobuck ate a Hoagie, and GOWKs SS master was no match for Djem Mastery. YodaSpirit just sits there and Lol, I was gonna challenge you to prove it, but you've done a well enough job on your own of proving that you don't understand what is being said. This is not a one on one game of yoda vs Luke that you can play on a tile - that's completely meaningless in terms of identifying and testing the "no faction meta game". Try again against a good player (someone we know is a good player) with 200 point squads, and both preparing equally for the match up. Then play it 10 times, and tell us how many times Luke wins.
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billiv15 wrote:Inquisitive Infiltrator wrote:To prove my point though, Play test on some tiles: Yobuck and GOWK VS. GMLS and YodaSpirit. Ive done it a bunch of times, and the outcome was always the same, Yobuck ate a Hoagie, and GOWKs SS master was no match for Djem Mastery. YodaSpirit just sits there and Lol, I was gonna challenge you to prove it, but you've done a well enough job on your own of proving that you don't understand what is being said. This is not a one on one game of yoda vs Luke that you can play on a tile - that's completely meaningless in terms of identifying and testing the "no faction meta game". Try again against a good player (someone we know is a good player) with 200 point squads, and both preparing equally for the match up. Then play it 10 times, and tell us how many times Luke wins. Not only that but he is playing it vs an all melee squad LOL! GMLS wrecks melee so of course he would win. I would happily like to test out a GMLS squad on Vassal sometime though bill. Not saying he's playable but under certain conditions he could be very hard to kill.
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joelker41 wrote:billiv15 wrote:Inquisitive Infiltrator wrote:To prove my point though, Play test on some tiles: Yobuck and GOWK VS. GMLS and YodaSpirit. Ive done it a bunch of times, and the outcome was always the same, Yobuck ate a Hoagie, and GOWKs SS master was no match for Djem Mastery. YodaSpirit just sits there and Lol, I was gonna challenge you to prove it, but you've done a well enough job on your own of proving that you don't understand what is being said. This is not a one on one game of yoda vs Luke that you can play on a tile - that's completely meaningless in terms of identifying and testing the "no faction meta game". Try again against a good player (someone we know is a good player) with 200 point squads, and both preparing equally for the match up. Then play it 10 times, and tell us how many times Luke wins. Not only that but he is playing it vs an all melee squad LOL! GMLS wrecks melee so of course he would win. I would happily like to test out a GMLS squad on Vassal sometime though bill. Not saying he's playable but under certain conditions he could be very hard to kill. Most certainly. He did well in a number of regionals, I think I remember seeing at least 2 squads that went 4-2, and a 3-1. The problem is not that he can't be killed, it's that he has a hard time getting through carefully played disruptive, override, and squads with higher mobility that can skirt past Luke, isolate him, and either kill him in time, or avoid him for the points win.
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billiv15 wrote:joelker41 wrote:billiv15 wrote:Inquisitive Infiltrator wrote:To prove my point though, Play test on some tiles: Yobuck and GOWK VS. GMLS and YodaSpirit. Ive done it a bunch of times, and the outcome was always the same, Yobuck ate a Hoagie, and GOWKs SS master was no match for Djem Mastery. YodaSpirit just sits there and Lol, I was gonna challenge you to prove it, but you've done a well enough job on your own of proving that you don't understand what is being said. This is not a one on one game of yoda vs Luke that you can play on a tile - that's completely meaningless in terms of identifying and testing the "no faction meta game". Try again against a good player (someone we know is a good player) with 200 point squads, and both preparing equally for the match up. Then play it 10 times, and tell us how many times Luke wins. Not only that but he is playing it vs an all melee squad LOL! GMLS wrecks melee so of course he would win. I would happily like to test out a GMLS squad on Vassal sometime though bill. Not saying he's playable but under certain conditions he could be very hard to kill. Most certainly. He did well in a number of regionals, I think I remember seeing at least 2 squads that went 4-2, and a 3-1. The problem is not that he can't be killed, it's that he has a hard time getting through carefully played disruptive, override, and squads with higher mobility that can skirt past Luke, isolate him, and either kill him in time, or avoid him for the points win. I am not disagreeing with you lol just saying Luke will be a decently tough out if he is played by a competent player.
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joelker41 wrote:
I am not disagreeing with you lol just saying Luke will be a decently tough out if he is played by a competent player.
And I was agreeing with you :) However, the question at hand was whether or not GMLS would actually be tougher in this format, or less than his current status. I contend, that there is no way Luke gets better in comparison to the other squads. I think his squads actually lose a few steps in this new "meta".
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Yeah, the issue with Luke is that his support is already extremely limited. Can his support really be better than Ganner or Leia? Maybe Riekan, but Thrawn is a waste, since you can't get enough activations for it to be worth it. A lot of other key commanders can't affect him. His support for the most part is stagnant in a change to factionless, where as various other squads get great amount of support. Droid squads are in a similar situation, since they won't get anything they don't already have, so they will drop, like Luke will drop as a select few squad types rise to the top.
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