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NickName wrote:engineer wrote:
What would happen if the spotter could stay way back from the target?
The ability might get some use. I think the spotter needs to activate, but not sight. Maybe range 12 or a sliding scale depending how close to the target? It all gets more complicated. I think spotter 10 would work well. Spotter 30 might be too much.
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engineer wrote:
I think the spotter needs to activate, but not sight. Maybe range 12 or a sliding scale depending how close to the target?
It all gets more complicated. I think spotter 10 would work well. Spotter 30 might be too much.
I already mentioned it, but I think the biggest detriment to Spotter (and combining fire in general) is that you can't move while combining fire. Having to be close is just pouring salt on the wound. As is, to use Spotter, you not only have to get close, you have to move up close and be vulnerable one round and then use spotter the next round. Unless you move up at the end of one round and then use Spotter right away there's a good chance the spotter dies before it's used. (Most spotters are pretty fragile.) If you allow movement (i.e. "may move up to speed immediately before combining fire"), then the Spotter is still likely to die right after using Spotter, but at least he could spring out from around a corner and actually use the ability before dying.
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FlyingArrow wrote:engineer wrote:
I think the spotter needs to activate, but not sight. Maybe range 12 or a sliding scale depending how close to the target?
It all gets more complicated. I think spotter 10 would work well. Spotter 30 might be too much.
I already mentioned it, but I think the biggest detriment to Spotter (and combining fire in general) is that you can't move while combining fire. Having to be close is just pouring salt on the wound. As is, to use Spotter, you not only have to get close, you have to move up close and be vulnerable one round and then use spotter the next round. Unless you move up at the end of one round and then use Spotter right away there's a good chance the spotter dies before it's used. (Most spotters are pretty fragile.) If you allow movement (i.e. "may move up to speed immediately before combining fire"), then the Spotter is still likely to die right after using Spotter, but at least he could spring out from around a corner and actually use the ability before dying. If you make the spotter have too many HP, then the cost gets so high, why not just attack with the character instead. So the HP needs to be low to keep the cost low. Hmmm... Or you could give spotter 10 to a melee character.
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Mobile for spotters may be too much but limited movement may help.
Ok characters with spotter are
Name Rarity Cost HP Def Atk Dmg Special Abilities
Duros Explorer C 7 10 14 4 10 Evade, Spotter +10
Sullustan Scout C 10 20 14 5 10 Cunning Attack, Spotter +10, Stealth
Aqualish Spy C 11 40 16 6 10 Spotter +10
Twi'lek Rebel Agent UC 9 10 15 2 10 Spotter +20, Stealth
Jawa Scout C 10 30 16 6 10 Ion Gun +20, Spotter +20, Stealth
Rebel Trooper on Tauntaun R 13 40 13 6 10 Mobile Attack, Recon, Speed 8, Spotter +20
Aerial Clone Trooper Captain R 23 40 14 10 20 Flight, Spotter +20, Order 66
Garindan R 12 30 13 5 10 Unique, Spotter +30, Stealth
Now they are all pretty fragile.
Spotter suicide mobile '...may move up to half its speed before it use Spotter X...'
Or '...characters with Spotter X gain range 12 when combining fire against a target...'
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I could be wrong, Bit it seems to me that Combining fire in general was used a lot more in the earlier History of the game. I remember playing the 1st two sets and Combining fire was such an important part of the game. I only say that because, After watching how some of the newer players play in our area, I realized that it wasn't part of their overall strategy. Come to think of it there have been many games in which there has been NO combined fire in the whole game. In looking at my own strategies of late, I Haven't utiliized combined fire very much. I understand that the game , and the meta ,has changed so much.
Maybe a new CE affecting Spotter might be good.
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Has anyone considered a Spotter Twin? Something that would let you combined fire on someone's Twin Attack cutting down on the number of 'wasted' acts. I first thought of it when using Dash and his low attack rating and want to get one more boost instead of putting a Malak or Yoda,GM or GOWK.
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engineer wrote:NickName wrote:engineer wrote:
What would happen if the spotter could stay way back from the target?
The ability might get some use. I think the spotter needs to activate, but not sight. Maybe range 12 or a sliding scale depending how close to the target? It all gets more complicated. I think spotter 10 would work well. Spotter 30 might be too much. Garindan will certainly be the point of reference, but given he's unique and that 30 damage ain't what it used to be in SWM terms, I think it would be easy enough to price a commander that improves Spotter correctly. Garindan will probably be the initial go-to piece, but you'll probably want to build around taking greater advantage of the CE than just that. Or, worst case, make the CE apply to non-uniques only leaving Garindan with his borderline usable version as is.
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engineer wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:
I already mentioned it, but I think the biggest detriment to Spotter (and combining fire in general) is that you can't move while combining fire. Having to be close is just pouring salt on the wound. As is, to use Spotter, you not only have to get close, you have to move up close and be vulnerable one round and then use spotter the next round. Unless you move up at the end of one round and then use Spotter right away there's a good chance the spotter dies before it's used. (Most spotters are pretty fragile.) If you allow movement (i.e. "may move up to speed immediately before combining fire"), then the Spotter is still likely to die right after using Spotter, but at least he could spring out from around a corner and actually use the ability before dying.
If you make the spotter have too many HP, then the cost gets so high, why not just attack with the character instead. So the HP needs to be low to keep the cost low. Hmmm... Or you could give spotter 10 to a melee character. Yeah, low HP is fine for combined-fire pieces if they can actually be used some. I'd favor a movement option over more HP on spotters.
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CerousMutor wrote:Mobile for spotters may be too much but limited movement may help. Yeah, I wasn't suggesting mobile for spotters. Either move before or after spotting (pick one), not using both at the same time. Half speed like you mentioned would be better than what we have now, but even moving up to their speed would still be ok, I think. Maybe limit it to one character per turn so you don't have 5 characters bursting out of the woodworks all at the same time. That could be abusive perhaps if all the spotters moved at once to clog up the battlefield and prevent enemy movements. A CE could say "Once per turn, one allied character may move up to its Speed immediately before combining fire."
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Urza Planeswalker Jedi Master wrote:Has anyone considered a Spotter Twin? Something that would let you combined fire on someone's Twin Attack cutting down on the number of 'wasted' acts. I first thought of it when using Dash and his low attack rating and want to get one more boost instead of putting a Malak or Yoda,GM or GOWK. Flanking Support kind of works that way. Not for Spotter but for combined fire in general... you effectively get the +4 for all attacks against that enemy for the round, provided the attack with combined fire hits.
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qvos wrote:I could be wrong, Bit it seems to me that Combining fire in general was used a lot more in the earlier History of the game. I remember playing the 1st two sets and Combining fire was such an important part of the game. I only say that because, After watching how some of the newer players play in our area, I realized that it wasn't part of their overall strategy. Come to think of it there have been many games in which there has been NO combined fire in the whole game. In looking at my own strategies of late, I Haven't utiliized combined fire very much. I understand that the game , and the meta ,has changed so much.
Maybe a new CE affecting Spotter might be good. My guess is the advent of Mobile Attack. With Mobile, Super Stealth, etc., defenses are so much better now that becoming vulnerable is a bigger issue. Old way: I step out for combined fire. If the spotter gets killed, the enemy who killed him is probably vulnerable. New way: I step out for combined fire. Spotter gets killed and there's no chance for return fire. That's a simplification, obviously. But the basic idea is that now it's a bigger risk now to make yourself vulnerable by using combined fire: Almost guaranteed death for the spotter, maybe even before combining fire at all, and with so much Evade it might not cause any damage anyway, and while your main shooter might have multiple attacks the spotter only counts for one, and if the spotter does die the likelihood of a return fire opportunity is less than it used to be due to so much Mobile Attack/Super Stealth.
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I'm not in favor of extending the range on spotters currently in the game. They were costed as is, and I don't think the range 6 is their biggest issue.
Now, could we make a new spotter like ability that worked from a longer range? Sure - I'd consider it.
To the not activating rule - not a chance. Don't take offense, but it would become terribly broken.
To the moving rule - do we really want to created more mobile shooting squads and increase their power? I'm not in favor of that generally speaking.
The issue here is, how can we help make spotter more interesting without making mobile shooter squads more effective, without encouraging non-engagement strategies (like staying farther away, but getting big benefits), and without breaking current minis.
Evade is a part of the deal, but it too isn't the end all be all, as spotter can be used on attacks made when adjacent - in fact this is generally the best way to use them, as it has the side effect of keeping the spotter safer.
I used to run a WFF swarm with the Rebel Leader, and it worked great. Run up, attack one round, use spotter the next round for another charging wookiee. Garindan sees top tier competitive play with Mara Jade Jedi, and tier 2 play with Nom Bombs. Using spotter in this way is more defensive than offensive. It makes attacking the Mara/Nom a dangerous proposition, because the return fire will be spotted by a safe, hidden Garindan for an extra 30 dmg.
So love the ideas, even if I didn't like a particular one, I love that people are thinking about it, keep it coming.
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It would be much more usefull if there was a way to move them when its not their turn. Or have a bunch more activations then them and set up your spotter for the combine at initiative.............oh wait we have that already :)
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billiv15 wrote:
To the moving rule - do we really want to created more mobile shooting squads and increase their power? I'm not in favor of that generally speaking.
If the option to move is appropriately costed, it wouldn't really increase a shooting squad's power. It would just add a new option - viable combined fire/Spotter. I do agree that combined fire shouldn't be like 'mobile attack' where you can move out and back in without being vulnerable, but I don't see the problem with moving before combining fire.
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billiv15 wrote:I'm not in favor of extending the range on spotters currently in the game. They were costed as is, and I don't think the range 6 is their biggest issue. They were clearly costed wrong. You could be right on the latter, but it's the most obvious and easiest place to start. Quote:Now, could we make a new spotter like ability that worked from a longer range? Sure - I'd consider it. Different strokes I guess, but it seems to me a new ability/CE that brought 5-6 old characters into play is better than a new one that just helps the one new character it's on. (This kind of trade-off is actually one of the few areas where I don't think the VSet team quite delivered to their potential with DotF and hope they do more of in the future VSets. I want to see new characters that bring old "useless" characters back into play, multiplying the value of the new character more than I want to see a new character that's just plain better. But that's probably a discussion to be had in a new thread--what "interesting topic" # are we on now?  )
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NickName wrote:billiv15 wrote:I'm not in favor of extending the range on spotters currently in the game. They were costed as is, and I don't think the range 6 is their biggest issue. They were clearly costed wrong. You could be right on the latter, but it's the most obvious and easiest place to start. Quote:Now, could we make a new spotter like ability that worked from a longer range? Sure - I'd consider it. Different strokes I guess, but it seems to me a new ability/CE that brought 5-6 old characters into play is better than a new one that just helps the one new character it's on. (This kind of trade-off is actually one of the few areas where I don't think the VSet team quite delivered to their potential with DotF and hope they do more of in the future VSets. I want to see new characters that bring old "useless" characters back into play, multiplying the value of the new character more than I want to see a new character that's just plain better. But that's probably a discussion to be had in a new thread--what "interesting topic" # are we on now? ) I agree. I dont think they got anything wrong witht the first set. Hell that set sinlge handedely brought the Sith and Vong up to speed. On the Spotter thing I dont think it would be broken if it was sinlged out. ???????? (chose one allied character with Spotter for the remainder of the skirmish that character gains... ...may move up to half its speed before it use Spotter X... ...characters with Spotter X gain range 12 when combining fire against a target... ...Camouflage (Characters with Spotter gain Advantageous Cover) ... ...Once per turn, that character may move up to its Speed immediately before combining fire...
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Wow once again thanks to everyone for the replies. This has turned into a great discussion and a great read. Lots of good things said. I have to say that I would be much more inclined to use one of the Spotter abilities if a playable CE was added to it. I really like CerousMutor's idea's. ???????? (chose one allied character with Spotter for the remainder of the skirmish that character gains...
...may move up to half its speed before it use Spotter X...
...characters with Spotter X gain range 12 when combining fire against a target...
...Camouflage (Characters with Spotter gain Advantageous Cover) ...Gotta say the Camouflage one is my favorite. Also really liked what NickName said here. "I want to see new characters that bring old "useless" characters back into play, multiplying the value of the new character more than I want to see a new character that's just plain better."I do like the V-Set and I also would love to see the V-Set's bring back in the older characters. To add to that it would be nice to see older SA's that aren't much used anymore brought back in with the V-Sets. Once again thank you to everyone contributing their idea's and opinions.  Thanks guys!
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