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Broken and under-costed combos Options
billiv15
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 1:41:30 PM
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NickName wrote:

Two things arguably broke the game (the second much more arguable than the first).

1) Override in its early form allowed victory through unintended means with virtually no counter except bringing override yourself.

2) Soresu Style Mastery on GOWK created a situation where it was virtually impossible to play a tournament game to conclusion in the allotted time, radically reshaping the metagame.

Both these items have been sufficiently addressed in the tournament rules leaving a pretty well "unbroken" game for WotC purists and DotF hasn't done anything to change that that I've seen for those who choose to move forward with the VSets.


I'm looking for the facebook Like Button? Any mods that can point me in the direction?

Seriously, I agree. These are the two worst and only examples of broken mechanics that WotC produced. I'm pretty certain nothing DotF produced has done anything like either of these - and I believe it won't.

In terms of powerful concepts added to the game on par with WotC's concepts, I'd say the Yam is as powerful as Reeikan, but in a faction with much less to start with. I'd say the most difficult combo to deal with might be the Atris/GOWK Ladies squad, but that isn't particularly new either, is just got a boost. Second would be Sep DD/Lancer/Sora/Whorm combos, but again, nothing I've seen demonstrates these as being better than what existed.

The closest thing to a problem we created are the force abilities, because it's a new level of stacking that didn't exist in the game before outside of Sep droids lol. But the design team is well aware of what we did, and how to hopefully prevent those powerful new toys from becoming broken - at least I think we do anyway :)
Sashlon
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 3:19:46 PM
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Just to clarify guys,

I actually don't think there's much thats broken in minis, I was talking about perceptions and trying to point out the silliness of the whole 'v-set figs are overpowered and broken' arguement ;)
Rikalonius
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:59:19 PM
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Darth_Jim wrote:
Sashlon wrote:
This is how we keep our game & community going, and I just don't see why some one would want to opt out of that.


I'd be curious to see just what the nay-sayers are actually doing themselves to keep the game going. We've got to do SOMETHING to keep the game fresh, or it dies a slow but sure death from the stagnation brought on by WOTC's pull out. Personally, I think we're on the right track. Now, to get back on topic...

I am of the opinion that any discussion of broken pieces should include the ultimate litmus test: tournament results involving the best players in the game playing in the most important tournaments in the game. The best players will play the most broken pieces when the stakes are highest. What combination on that list has been on the last 3 championship squads at GenCon? Dodonna and Rieeken. Upcoming regionals will help tell us if DotF has done enough to break that domination.


You know my son and I still play Risk, and Axis and Allies. We don't have any special community made rules created by tournament players. Heck I know people who still play Awful Green Things from Outter Space. I give all the people who created the V-sets all the props in the world for their hard work. I think the generousity shown by people to get cards out was a wonderful endevour, BUT I don't have any interest in it. I just want to play the legacy game. I'm sorry that grates a few of you. I've done scenerios and modified figures to fit my needs. There is nothing wrong with it. I'm glad all you tournament players have agreed on these rules for yourself. What fires me up is that any incling of disapproval about the v-sets is met with scorn by those who like it. Since everyone in the 'community' agrees on the v-sets, couldn't you just have agreed on some errata and maybe a few bannings? In a couple of years , you'll all play with nothing but v-sets, and that's fine, but I'll still want to play the Legacy game with my friends. All I wanted was a check box to opt out of having them in the squad builder. I love the site, and I would love to keep utilizing it for my needs, but some people act like I've mooned the Pope at Sunday mass in the Vatican.
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:38:22 PM
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You've been to the Vatican?OMG

Couldn't resistLaugh
qvos
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:38:44 PM
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Rikalonius wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Sashlon wrote:
This is how we keep our game & community going, and I just don't see why some one would want to opt out of that.


I'd be curious to see just what the nay-sayers are actually doing themselves to keep the game going. We've got to do SOMETHING to keep the game fresh, or it dies a slow but sure death from the stagnation brought on by WOTC's pull out. Personally, I think we're on the right track. Now, to get back on topic...

I am of the opinion that any discussion of broken pieces should include the ultimate litmus test: tournament results involving the best players in the game playing in the most important tournaments in the game. The best players will play the most broken pieces when the stakes are highest. What combination on that list has been on the last 3 championship squads at GenCon? Dodonna and Rieeken. Upcoming regionals will help tell us if DotF has done enough to break that domination.


You know my son and I still play Risk, and Axis and Allies. We don't have any special community made rules created by tournament players. Heck I know people who still play Awful Green Things from Outter Space. I give all the people who created the V-sets all the props in the world for their hard work. I think the generousity shown by people to get cards out was a wonderful endevour, BUT I don't have any interest in it. I just want to play the legacy game. I'm sorry that grates a few of you. I've done scenerios and modified figures to fit my needs. There is nothing wrong with it. I'm glad all you tournament players have agreed on these rules for yourself. What fires me up is that any incling of disapproval about the v-sets is met with scorn by those who like it. Since everyone in the 'community' agrees on the v-sets, couldn't you just have agreed on some errata and maybe a few bannings? In a couple of years , you'll all play with nothing but v-sets, and that's fine, but I'll still want to play the Legacy game with my friends. All I wanted was a check box to opt out of having them in the squad builder. I love the site, and I would love to keep utilizing it for my needs, but some people act like I've mooned the Pope at Sunday mass in the Vatican.

No I totally agree that you have the right to choose to play with or w/o the v-sets. Thats up to you. The RISK thing was just brought up as an ex. Here's the thing about both RISK and A & A. They Both had different versions and updates made. It's funny but have the Original version of RISK in storage which I found hidden in my In laws shelves.I happen to own about 5 versions of RISK. Recently I played the updated version of A and A, the one where Russia stands a chance(LOL).
People still play checkers though also, and the concept of that game is pretty simple. Star Wars Minis however is the only game that I've played almost every week and even talked about online daily for the last 6 .5 years. I haven't done that myself with the other games.I'm not sure I'd ever think about joining a checkers site, talking about the 2 checkers factions, ect...BigGrin Maybe that's because I love Star Wars as much as gaming. I know I'm not the only one though.
You have the right to choose as do I. The reason though this site and others such as Gamers thrive is because of the interest in endeavors like the v-sets. The main purpose of the v-sets was to help keep interest in the game going. I think they've accomplished that.
imyurhukaberry
Posted: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:59:33 PM
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In response to the Rieekan/Dodonna vs Yammosk/Nem, I watched that exact matchup a couple weekends ago. It was an epic match for sure, but by no means did either team completely dominate the game. The yammosk granting Evade was a HUGE help to the Vong, which used Warmaster/Jedi hunters and had to close ranks to do anything.
(I believe the Rebel squad won the match in the end, but mostly due to the Vong player forgetting he had Evade on ALL his Vong characters.)
billiv15
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:44:05 AM
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Rikalonius wrote:

I think the generousity shown by people to get cards out was a wonderful endevour, BUT I don't have any interest in it. I just want to play the legacy game.
Why not?

Rikalonius wrote:
I'm sorry that grates a few of you.
It really doesn't. What you are seeing is a result of history that probably isn't related to you with DotF complaints. In the past, on this site, nearly every time someone started a complaint about DotF this or that, it was someone looking to start a fight. Again, as I said in the other thread, not your fault, just wanted you to know why. It isn't because people don't want you to post what you think of our projects, its a guard that comes up.

Rikalonius wrote:
I've done scenerios and modified figures to fit my needs. There is nothing wrong with it.
So wait, you do this on your own, yet aren't willing to try playing with community projects? So you think something is invariable wrong/broken with ours, ok please explain this.

Rikalonius wrote:
Since everyone in the 'community' agrees on the v-sets, couldn't you just have agreed on some errata and maybe a few bannings?
Good question. First, you disagree with us making new figures, but you want us to change the game in other ways. That reeks of hypocrisy. I'm curious what you think we should have fixed. Are you aware that we had pretty long public conversations about it, and the community as a whole, felt that it was better to leave WotC's game alone as it was constructed at the end through DCI rules, and continue with new figures that worked within those existing rules. It helps players who show up to a tournament with only WotC figures, and a number of other reasons.

Rikalonius wrote:
In a couple of years , you'll all play with nothing but v-sets, and that's fine, but I'll still want to play the Legacy game with my friends.
Ok, this is over the line BS. That's a claim that we've broke the game with our figures, and it flat out isn't true. You can predict all the Armageddon you want, but you've also given no evidence of it, simply stated this as an opinion without any support. This thread asked people for that support, not more telling us you don't like it. If there's something wrong with what we've done, we'd like to hear it. No one cares that you and your friends want to play the game through Legacy, which wasn't the end of the WotC game, but hey, whatever floats your boat. But then you get on here, and feel the need to tell us repeatedly that you don't want to play it with our V-sets. That suggests quite highly that you aren't just concerned with your right to play how you want being trampled on. You've got a beef, and want to express it. Which is fine too, but stay away from backing into a corner and acting like a victim.

Rikalonius wrote:
All I wanted was a check box to opt out of having them in the squad builder. I love the site, and I would love to keep utilizing it for my needs, but some people act like I've mooned the Pope at Sunday mass in the Vatican.
Did you seriously read that thread? It wasn't just a addition to the squad builder, it was a "I don't like the V-set, so please give me the ability to remove it" which quickly turned to a who else doesn't like V-sets thread. When you look at it, this is such a petty concern, that it pretty clearly demonstrates there is more to it than just wanting a button. Not just speaking about you here. Personally, I don't really care, a button that removes certain sets as a whole would be great, but making it just about DotF is pretty weak.
wannabe mexican
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:00:09 AM
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Rikalonius wrote:

In a couple of years , you'll all play with nothing but v-sets, and that's fine, but I'll still want to play the Legacy game with my friends.


This is the claim that I take issue to. In the future you will probably rarely see a squad without a V-Set figure in it sure. But that we will only play with V-Set figs is a ridiculous claim. A rebel squad without Dodonna? I'm sorry, but that is just a silly notion.

Obviously if I feel like running a swarm of Imperial Alpha Squadron Pilots, then yes, that squad will be primarily V-Set figs. But that is one squad out of the many thousands of combinations available. But I doubt that pilot swarm would not include uggies, mice, perhaps Thrawn and Mas or Lobot.

The V-Sets are being made to prevent stagnation. No V-Sets, and you will see the same old squads appearing every time at major tournaments. So new characters are being made that enable us to bring in the minor factions and make older miniatures more useful. My point is, V-Sets are here to supplement the minis we have, not to replace them.
EmporerDragon
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:18:58 AM
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Another counter against the "nothing but v-set pieces in a few years" claim is that another purpose of new minis (both WotC and V-set) is to bring old minis back into the spotlight. Take Poggle the Lesser for example. He helped bring back the Geonosians to the table whereas without him, they'd still be in the back of the shoebox like they were for the past 6 years.
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 3:34:55 AM
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OK, get back on topic now folks.

Broken combos:
- what are the worst
- are there any new ones after DotF
- if so, are those any worse than WotC's...
NickName
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 7:47:19 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
I'd say the most difficult combo to deal with might be the Atris/GOWK Ladies squad, but that isn't particularly new either, is just got a boost.


We've found Atris to be quite tough in several variants. Tom's running Evade on them which pretty well torches anything that wants to stay shooty and piles damage on anything using a traditional rush. A 20% swing both ways in hitting with attacks really is a lot more than you think conceptually. She's something of a surprise given she initially looked like a bit of a one trick pony with a Handmaiden swarm.

I actually built something today with her that should be a bit weaker since it avoids the handmaiden CE completely, but seemed fun so we'll see how it goes tonight.
juice man
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 8:36:19 AM
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How about this:

Mando Scout and Czerka Scientist - Cloaked, GMA, Double, Twin, Opp. all for just 32 pts. Add extra Mandos for 19 a pop.
qvos
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:14:00 AM
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juice man wrote:
How about this:

Mando Scout and Czerka Scientist - Cloaked, GMA, Double, Twin, Opp. all for just 32 pts. Add extra Mandos for 19 a pop.
They don't get twin on thier own. I think that's with the Captain.
qvos
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:15:17 AM
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My bad... the Czerka...... Too many deathsticks... I see.. It looks like a tough combo but the czerka is the weak link.
juice man
Posted: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 12:26:08 PM
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Captain is more survivable, but tuck the czerka behind some walls and she'll last long enough to give your opponent fits.
eMouse
Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:25:05 AM
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NickName wrote:
1) Override in its early form allowed victory through unintended means with virtually no counter except bringing override yourself.


Override was a significant part of the game to the very end. My biggest concern coming into the game very late is that Override was a cornerstone of SWM strategy, but nothing in the basic rules or starter gave any hint of it. Anyone who had just picked up the game would show up at an event with zero door control and get completely owned because of it. Their only way to get competitive was to get one of the rare figures that had door control, or buy up several packs of one of the earliest sets of the game, which were getting rare toward the end of the run. Thankfully, WotC added R7 once Champions availability got too thin.

I really would have liked to see WotC include a generic Astromech droid in starters. It would have been a small, cheap figure to make, as a repaint of R2 or R5. It would have given new players a door control piece right from the start, and given existing players a bit of incentive to crack multiple starters.
saeseetiin
Posted: Thursday, March 24, 2011 3:41:39 PM
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[Post copied over to appropriate thread here:

http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=9060

- swinefeld]
theultrastar
Posted: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:16:07 AM
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How about Ganner/Mara Jedi combo?
NickName
Posted: Friday, March 25, 2011 3:25:56 AM
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eMouse wrote:
NickName wrote:
1) Override in its early form allowed victory through unintended means with virtually no counter except bringing override yourself.


Override was a significant part of the game to the very end. My biggest concern coming into the game very late is that Override was a cornerstone of SWM strategy, but nothing in the basic rules or starter gave any hint of it. Anyone who had just picked up the game would show up at an event with zero door control and get completely owned because of it.


Absolutely true.

The distinction being that while it was a critical aspect to the end, it was no longer arguably breaking the game after a series of changes from the designers in both new pieces and new rules.

I still tend to think Override is the worst element of the game, though it became mostly managable by CotF with the introduction of the Ugnaught Demolitionist. I would have prefered a different approach to reigning it in, but what Rob did worked well enough.
General_Grievous
Posted: Friday, March 25, 2011 2:33:09 PM
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theultrastar wrote:
How about Ganner/Mara Jedi combo?


That one is brutal, how about wedge, leia, jaina and Jacen, mobile, evade, parry and two saves for it.

One of my favorite ones is sideous and be lancer. Such a brutally efficient weapon to clean the whole board.

Oh and a fun one which is only broken if chance is one your side, Grievous DAC and Wat Tambor TUF
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