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FlyingArrow wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:Dimetrodon wrote:Mace has a 20% chance to score a critical hit on every attack. Then with flurry, I don't want to attempt the math there on possible crits/hits in succession.
I did the math back when he was spoiled in this thread: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=8530&p=21Not the math, but a computer simulation since a straight formula would be pretty complicated for a situation like this. ====== Summary for those who don't want to follow the link: Mace's mean damage using 2 force points to reroll (even if he doesn't miss): 122 Mara's mean damage: 87 Lord Vader's mean damage (using LSA, Rage, and Opportunist from Thrawn): 131 (All based on 5000 replications of a simulation of attacks on the move against a 23 defense opponent.) Mace has a far higher ceiling to his damage output, but his damage output is also far more variable. If Mace got Momentum, Mace's output would be higher than Lord Vader's, but Mace also doesn't have a killer CE. His damage output is a lot higher than Mara's but he's also 20 points more. The major problem I have with this information is that it is very misleading. Of course Vader WITH thrawn does more damage. To say that Mace's damage is a lot higher then Mara's but he costs twenty more, well, Vader's Damage (with thrawn) are higher then mace's but he also cost like 37 more points. That is enough points to bring in someone like the wookie jedi, rex, w/e add them to mace's damage output and then you have a fair comparison  Sorry, I was just going with two big damage dealers as commonly used versus the new Mace. When I get a chance to update it, I'll see what Mace looks like with Momentum and LV without Opportunist. Well, I don't know about using him with general skywalker in this situation, but maybe putting him with the chag commander so that the point cost comparison is closer.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:
Well Watching him kill a full hitpoint Zannah in one activation was pretty dang crazy even with her force bubble.
Were you playing tournament rules for SSM? If so, then it's only like she had 150HP. Two crits will get him there. While on average you'd see less than 1 crit per 3 attacks, seeing two would not be too surprising. We always play by the tournament rules. And watching someone with 150 hit points die in one activation is pretty crazy to me lol. I have seen him kill the DotF revan in one activation, The new Darth Maul in one activation, and the list goes on and on.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
We always play by the tournament rules. And watching someone with 150 hit points die in one activation is pretty crazy to me lol. I have seen him kill the DotF revan in one activation, The new Darth Maul in one activation, and the list goes on and on.
Yeah, 150 pts in one activation is pretty crazy, but it shouldn't happen that often. If it's happening every time, you should check to see if you have a fair die. If it's not fair, save it for tournaments. :-) Seriously, if you're playing with a fair die, Mace should do 120 damage or less more than half the time, and that's assuming he spends 2 force points on rerolls chasing a crit (even if he hits). Without any re-rolls, he'll get 60 or less more than half the time. To kill Maul or Revan in one activation, he would need 2 crits out of 6 rolls. Not out of the question, but that should happen less than half the time.
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Sithborg wrote:Mace will crit in a game, he will most likely crit multiple times in a game. I acknowledge that. Where you lose me is that each crit is game ending. What good is a crit when he is going after someone with less than 60 HP? You can't control when he crits. Putting him in a position where he needs to crit is just leading for disaster. And spending FPs for rerolls is just too risky for me, because he needs the FPs for Reflect, and you open yourself up for a miss as well. I already explained this in my previous post at the top of page 2, but I will repeat myself. A lot of Mace's effectiveness is how the opponent happens to set pieces up and spread them out. There will be plenty of times where he can base several pieces at a time, and be able to wipe them out. This is of course referring to the so called 60HP and less figures. Lets say he crits one down, then he not only has the remainder of his triple attack, but the unresolved attack from flurry to pop someone with. Even if he makes normal attacks, and just one is a crit, he will pretty much annihilate whatever the opposition is. It's not always about taking out the big guys, but the support pieces as well. And lets not assume he is basing small fries. What if he gets next to two key pieces with 100 or more health. It's beyond likely he will not only kill one of them, but also kill the second, or do severe enough damage that another piece can easily make it take a dirt nap. In a One on One I believe him to be a superior piece as he has the chance to kill a heavy duty piece in a turn, but its not always about that. As my above example indicates. Sometimes it might be better to wear down an enemy. all depends on the support in Mace's squad and what you are up against. Quote:And there are some hard counters. Saesee Tiin, JM, Durge, JH, and Droids. Personally, I would love to see him go through some T1s. And there are others that give him fits. Parry and Makashi can slow down his damage, a lot. The group of figs I call the "Duelists", MOTF 2 with Block will be key in stopping major hits, as well as Duelist slowing down his normal damage. Hard counters? Perhaps he loses the bonus crit damage, but he still gets flurry for more swing damage against droids and resilient characters. Djem So Mastery is debatable. Mace will take some damage back, unless he crits the hell out of Luke or Tiin. Then they go bye bye without doing much. It depends. What if the save for Djem So fails? Reroll it, or just go with LS defense or LS block? And can't Mace do Riposte right back against Djem So as well?? Mace is a Monster. How much of one you truly believe he is... well.. we'll see as time goes on. But a smart player with a well built squad will just faceroll people if you ask me.
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Dimetrodon wrote:
Perhaps he loses the bonus crit damage, but he still gets flurry for more swing damage against droids and resilient characters.
He only gets Flurry on a natural 20 versus Droids/Resilient characters. Glossary for Flurry: When this character scores a critical hit (or makes an attack roll of natural 20, if the target is unaffected by critical hits), it may make one immediate extra attack, in addition to the other effects of a critical hit. It may make an extra attack each time it scores a critical hit, even as the result of this extra attack. The extra attack doesn't have to be against the same target if another legal target is available. === Edit: Oops. I guess 17+ does get a reroll vs droids but not vs Resilient/Armored Spacesuit. (?) Off to the Rules forum...
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Seriously guys, he's probably not even top tier.
He is totally luck based. And he have very little on the defensive end. Will he do damage? Sure he will. But if you're foolish enough to try and fight him with melee, you deserve to lose. Shooters tear him up. I really don't understand why you guys can't see that. Play more than 1-2 game with a piece before you proclaim it broken.
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Yeah, 150 pts in one activation is pretty crazy, but it shouldn't happen that often. If it's happening every time, you should check to see if you have a fair die. If it's not fair, save it for tournaments. :-)
Seriously, if you're playing with a fair die, Mace should do 120 damage or less more than half the time, and that's assuming he spends 2 force points on rerolls chasing a crit (even if he hits). Without any re-rolls, he'll get 60 or less more than half the time. To kill Maul or Revan in one activation, he would need 2 crits out of 6 rolls. Not out of the question, but that should happen less than half the time.
thats to kill them Lets say Mace gets just one crit against Revan. thats 60 damage, then another 60 damage from the 2 attacks and flurry. it will leave him at 10 health. But what I want to know is this Revan that went down in a turn. Did he use force points to roll for LS Defense and fail the save twice? even then, Mace can do enough potential damage, even if Revan blocked some, that another piece can kill him in that same turn, or maybe the next one. See, the thing is whether Mace kills a guy in one turn personally almost doesn't matter, because some shooter or other piece can likely pop them off too int he same turn. depends on the setup of a game.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Dimetrodon wrote:
Perhaps he loses the bonus crit damage, but he still gets flurry for more swing damage against droids and resilient characters.
He only gets Flurry on a natural 20 versus Droids/Resilient characters. Glossary for Flurry: When this character scores a critical hit (or makes an attack roll of natural 20, if the target is unaffected by critical hits), it may make one immediate extra attack, in addition to the other effects of a critical hit. It may make an extra attack each time it scores a critical hit, even as the result of this extra attack. The extra attack doesn't have to be against the same target if another legal target is available. Shhhh lol
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Resillient and Armored Space Suit negates Flurry on the rolls of 17, 18, and 19, so he is only getting Flurry if he rolls a 20. So yea, Durge and Saesee negates his major damage output. Vaapad Mastery is completely negated.
Against Saesee, Mace will be facing 1-2 Djem So attacks at 30 Dam. Sure, Mace can Riposte, but do you really want to take another 30 dam hit. Against Saesee, it will come down to support, which Saesee can afford nearly 20 more points of. Vs Durge, you better save some FPs for Reflect.
Sure, vs Droids, Mace still keeps the Flurry on 17+, but it isn't nearly as effective. Which is fine, since you can still swarm him with Droids. Or cry vs the Series II Destroyer. Sure, he still gets quite a few attacks, but he loses a LOT in damage output. Which means you aren't killing as much as you could, especially important when being swarmed.
Far to many variables to say whether or not being grouped up is going to be costly. Can't say that it can always be prevented, sometimes it will be worthwhile.
And here's another thought. We keep on going on about him rolling 17+. Shouldn't some 1-4 be tossed in, giving him some misses?
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Sithborg wrote:
And here's another thought. We keep on going on about him rolling 17+. Shouldn't some 1-4 be tossed in, giving him some misses?
well the miss rate depends on the defense of whatever he is attacking. Thats just plain variable, but lets assume just 1-4 in most generic cases, thats a 20% chance as well. And depending what you are facing will determine the use of force points to reroll. It's all situational. Pretty much the only thing thats not, is he can do a ton of damage, with or without crits. To be honest I'm not sure what is left to be said about him that this and any other thread haven't. =\
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I really don't understand the point of all of this. The designers and playtesters all compete at the highest level at regional events and GenCon. Do you really think you'll convince them that they made a mistake based on local results and statistics? I'm not saying that you are right or wrong... just saying that if you want to prove your point, work up good Mace squads, practice, and show up at a regional or a major event. If what you are saying is true, you'll roll to victory (Or at least have an impressive showing) and that will speak louder to the point you are trying to make.
Or maybe... get on Vassal with those squads and challenge those who are telling you Mace isn't broken. Like I said, I'm not saying you are right or wrong. Personally, I haven't played with or against Mace to form any kind of a personal opinion. Just saying that actions speak louder than words, and if you want to demonstrate to the community the validity of your arguement, that will say it with an exclamation point.
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Darth_Jim wrote:I really don't understand the point of all of this. Shhh! Controversy generates buzz and that's good for the game. Quote:Just saying that actions speak louder than words, and if you want to demonstrate to the community the validity of your arguement, that will say it with an exclamation point. That's what it boils down to.
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yeah nearly every time he has been play ed in our group, he gets 1 good run and then the next round he is gone.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Shhh! Controversy generates buzz and that's good for the game. -Yeah, I agree. The most interesting pieces seem to be those that the community can't conclusively determine whether their cost is appropriate or not. (I remember when Zuckuss came out. There was a big discussion whether he was worth the cost or not.) -Frankly, I don't know what to think of Mace just yet. Ultimately, I want to see how he does in regionals... === One character that should do well VS. Mace is Sora Bulq(with Whorm's twin attack). light saber duelist, double, Djem So, Vaapaad, and Sith Rage. Not a bad counter for 33 points :)
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i like the new mace. not in competative play but for use by less skilled players. in my play group we keep "overpowered" figures for just use by new players, or players that have a harder time getting anywhere with regular characters.
figures like GOWK, Boba BH, Dash, cad, and so on make a so called weaker opponent much more of a challenge. or we just give them more points to use in there squad.
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coffeebean wrote:i like the new mace. not in competative play but for use by less skilled players. in my play group we keep "overpowered" figures for just use by new players, or players that have a harder time getting anywhere with regular characters.
figures like GOWK, Boba BH, Dash, cad, and so on make a so called weaker opponent much more of a challenge. or we just give them more points to use in there squad.   great idea 
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Best Mace counter = Kel Dor Bounty Hunter :)
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Lord_Ball wrote:Best Mace counter = Kel Dor Bounty Hunter :) Not a bad counter, especially if the Mace's whole squad is melee. With shooters for backup, though, Mace would just avoid them the same way big opposing beatsticks should (in general) avoid Mace.
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Darth_Jim wrote:I really don't understand the point of all of this. The designers and playtesters all compete at the highest level at regional events and GenCon. Do you really think you'll convince them that they made a mistake based on local results and statistics? I'm not saying that you are right or wrong... just saying that if you want to prove your point, work up good Mace squads, practice, and show up at a regional or a major event. If what you are saying is true, you'll roll to victory (Or at least have an impressive showing) and that will speak louder to the point you are trying to make.
Or maybe... get on Vassal with those squads and challenge those who are telling you Mace isn't broken. Like I said, I'm not saying you are right or wrong. Personally, I haven't played with or against Mace to form any kind of a personal opinion. Just saying that actions speak louder than words, and if you want to demonstrate to the community the validity of your arguement, that will say it with an exclamation point. Things like this are why Jim is my favorite poster on either here or Gamers. Here's a challenge to anyone who considers Mace to be overpowered: Play me on Vassal with your best Mace squad. We will play best 2 out of 3 games. If you can go either 2-0 against me or 2-1 with your 2 wins blowing me out of the water due to Mace, there's a good chance you'll convert me to the "Mace is overpowered/undercosted" camp. And I'm a designer.
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With so many strong opinions on both sides, I thought the threads about Mace squads would get more suggestions. "Broken" Mace squads: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=10075"Obvious" counters to Mace: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=10076
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