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V-set 4 and epic expansion loves and hates Options
501 Trooper
Posted: Sunday, August 12, 2012 2:10:09 PM
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I also really like Mandalore the vindicated, but I used it in an Epic Duo with the new epic boba, and with the damage out put, it was like an epic itself.
DroidX
Posted: Sunday, August 12, 2012 3:12:18 PM
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covert ops training is not that bad! its not like you have to make the save for every attack, only if youve moved. the only thing the ability forces a melee squad to do is base a piece before you attack. base a piece and attempt an attack. miss the save? thats what they made force points for! miss again? life is so hard.... now you gotta wait till next round :'(....... will it make it more difficult? yes. impossible to beat/overpowered ability? no. it isnt any more broken than bastilas force ability, disruptive or Dr. E auto 30 damage to name a few. adjust to the game people
Jedi_Master
Posted: Sunday, August 12, 2012 8:34:06 PM
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DroidX wrote:
covert ops training is not that bad! its not like you have to make the save for every attack, only if youve moved. the only thing the ability forces a melee squad to do is base a piece before you attack. base a piece and attempt an attack. miss the save? thats what they made force points for! miss again? life is so hard.... now you gotta wait till next round :'(....... will it make it more difficult? yes. impossible to beat/overpowered ability? no. it isnt any more broken than bastilas force ability, disruptive or Dr. E auto 30 damage to name a few. adjust to the game people


The complaint is more along the lines of "there are already a tun of 'save 11 for no damage' abilities out there and now we have a save 11 to make an attack." For melee characters it is even worse. Yeah, woo, you have the force, guess what though, even with GMA or twin you only have a 50% chance of attacking, then, that 50% chance of attacking gives you an attack roll which only gives you a what, 75-80% chance of hitting with the attack roll on a jedi. Last up, we have characters having parry or ls block/defense, giving the hit you had a 40% chance of getting out of two attacks a 20% chance of hitting. But it gets better! The average tactic against melee units is to simply take an AoO to get away from the multi attacker. It use to be that against double attackers or GMA'ers you just sat there and took it, after all, moving just gave them more attacks. Now though, now they have a lower chance of even getting a hit in so why not move and take the AoO? The ability nerfs the hell out of melee.

The argument has been made it is better than energy shield but that isn't true either. Energy shield encourages units to ENGAGE the enemy, speeding up the game. Ops encourages people to stay AWAY from the enemy, slowing things down beyond the adding another 50/50 luck save every other attack. Not only that but the two can be layered now in the republic. Not that it is a likely scenario but if the ability spreads guess what, it will occur. How fun would a game be where no matter what you have to make a luck roll to see if you can attack? I would think it would be a piss poor stupid game and quit/never play in the first place. We were already heading that way with the huge onset of "save 11 for no damage" abilities on characters. This just foreshadows even more bad things as a counter needs to be made, then a counter counter...ect...
Sithborg
Posted: Sunday, August 12, 2012 9:06:35 PM
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I think it is a little early to declare Covert Ops as a trend in design. I'm not a fan of it, sure. But that is from what I saw in it being made from an unreasonable hatred at Gallopping Attack and Strafe Attack. Which has gotten a LOT of hate. As I designer, I don't necessarily see myself making it common. I might put it on a fig if I were essentially building up a Yuuzhan Vong infiltrator theme from the ground up. I think the three factions that have will be fine. Besides, I'm having a tough time seeing what the Mando will have to give up to get one in on their squad. Their best figs are already pretty costly.

And there are already counters. I think someone even mentioned the increase in Surprise Move/Intuition. I don't see that becoming a trend, but there are figs already with those that will get around it. Swap, a very common tactic in a lot of squads will get around it.

And heres something to keep in mind. The damage output has increased. I've seen a few people take note of it. I notice the powercreep that has sort of slipped through and ingrained itself. Defense, not so much. I'm a big fan of keeping to the guidelines WOTC set up for the normal figs. So, what does it have to do so figs aren't just dead if they pop out. Its a fine line between being able to survive an assault, and just shrugging it off. GOWK was an issue, and that it really should give everyone pause that he's okay to be legal again. Which is why, as much as I dislike Covert Ops, I'm willing to see how it affects the game. How many threads were made fighting about the new Mace?
DARPH NADER
Posted: Monday, August 13, 2012 11:21:40 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
And heres something to keep in mind. The damage output has increased. I've seen a few people take note of it. I notice the powercreep that has sort of slipped through and ingrained itself. Defense, not so much. I'm a big fan of keeping to the guidelines WOTC set up for the normal figs. So, what does it have to do so figs aren't just dead if they pop out. Its a fine line between being able to survive an assault, and just shrugging it off. GOWK was an issue, and that it really should give everyone pause that he's okay to be legal again. Which is why, as much as I dislike Covert Ops, I'm willing to see how it affects the game. How many threads were made fighting about the new Mace?


+1
Mando
Posted: Monday, August 13, 2012 12:32:16 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
I think it is a little early to declare Covert Ops as a trend in design. I'm not a fan of it, sure. But that is from what I saw in it being made from an unreasonable hatred at Gallopping Attack and Strafe Attack. Which has gotten a LOT of hate. As I designer, I don't necessarily see myself making it common. I might put it on a fig if I were essentially building up a Yuuzhan Vong infiltrator theme from the ground up. I think the three factions that have will be fine. Besides, I'm having a tough time seeing what the Mando will have to give up to get one in on their squad. Their best figs are already pretty costly.

And there are already counters. I think someone even mentioned the increase in Surprise Move/Intuition. I don't see that becoming a trend, but there are figs already with those that will get around it. Swap, a very common tactic in a lot of squads will get around it.

And heres something to keep in mind. The damage output has increased. I've seen a few people take note of it. I notice the powercreep that has sort of slipped through and ingrained itself. Defense, not so much. I'm a big fan of keeping to the guidelines WOTC set up for the normal figs. So, what does it have to do so figs aren't just dead if they pop out. Its a fine line between being able to survive an assault, and just shrugging it off. GOWK was an issue, and that it really should give everyone pause that he's okay to be legal again. Which is why, as much as I dislike Covert Ops, I'm willing to see how it affects the game. How many threads were made fighting about the new Mace?


+1

I've been warning people about powercreep and damage output for a while. I think this last set was a step in the right direction where unit cost actually fit the damage output for the most part. Its good to know that desingers like Sithborg and Boris from swmgamers.com are on the design team and take issues like powercreep and damage output seriously. I always enjoyed looking at both of these guys customs they made and posted on the gamers website and that people are picked according to how good they make custom stats for whole sets is a good sign of this game going forward and being balanced.
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 8:26:38 AM
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Does anyone know why "The Ganner" is 10 feet tall?
AndyHatton
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:16:52 AM
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Because he has Emplacement. I think giving him a large base was the only way to make it work with all of his None Shall Pass abilities. It is certainly an interesting take on Ganner
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:31:38 AM
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AndyHatton wrote:
Because he has Emplacement. I think giving him a large base was the only way to make it work with all of his None Shall Pass abilities. It is certainly an interesting take on Ganner


So is he supposed to be a medium sized character with a large base?

Also, why emplacement (ive never read the story, and can't seem to find an explanation of the mechanics on wookieepedia).

Finally, 150 points for an emplacement piece seems devastating. I guess you just have to set him up where no one can get LOS unless they're within 12 squares for force them to engage?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:31:53 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Does anyone know why "The Ganner" is 10 feet tall?


Partly because his legend is so 'big' in Vong folklore, I guess. But mainly because it's a large base and they wanted him to be able to have more adjacent Vong at the same time. Clearly, the simplest solution is to take Ganner (or just as likely, an Exceptional Jedi Apprentice), and drop it onto a large base. I say the EJA because Ganner is a VR and I'm not sure how many people have a spare VR to use on a custom.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:35:59 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
AndyHatton wrote:
Because he has Emplacement. I think giving him a large base was the only way to make it work with all of his None Shall Pass abilities. It is certainly an interesting take on Ganner


So is he supposed to be a medium sized character with a large base?

Also, why emplacement (ive never read the story, and can't seem to find an explanation of the mechanics on wookieepedia).

Finally, 150 points for an emplacement piece seems devastating. I guess you just have to set him up where no one can get LOS unless they're within 12 squares for force them to engage?


He has emplacement because the moment from the story that they are trying to represent, he was defending a location. He stayed there and did battle with the Vong without moving; it was all very dramatic, and emplacement makes sense as an abstraction of that. The large base was partly to make him work better in the game (more area for people to get adjacent to him) and also to abstract the large threat range he had at the time; no one was getting near him, and he was surrounded by many Vong (more than a medium base would accommodate).

He's one of the most thematic pieces that has been made yet, and that does have an impact on playability sometimes. Although on the right map None Shall Pass can be really brutal, and he's exceptionally strong against Vong, although considerably weaker against non-Vong.
adamb0nd
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:43:10 AM
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Echo24 wrote:


He has emplacement because the moment from the story that they are trying to represent, he was defending a location. He stayed there and did battle with the Vong without moving; it was all very dramatic, and emplacement makes sense as an abstraction of that. The large base was partly to make him work better in the game (more area for people to get adjacent to him) and also to abstract the large threat range he had at the time; no one was getting near him, and he was surrounded by many Vong (more than a medium base would accommodate).

He's one of the most thematic pieces that has been made yet, and that does have an impact on playability sometimes. Although on the right map None Shall Pass can be really brutal, and he's exceptionally strong against Vong, although considerably weaker against non-Vong.


Great explanation, thank you :)
dreadtech
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 12:29:49 PM
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Loves
1.Camaraderie
2.Rival
3.Acrobat, shame really underused. Suits Embo but suited others this set as well, Hope it stays on Unique characters though. both Shada & Laranth should of had this.
4.As a hole the set is better than last set,


HATES
1.Covert Ops Training
2. Characters been represented more than once per set, Dont give a c*** if ones in a mini or epic set.
3.Crimson Nova Guild Leader. (because bounty hunters really need jedi hunter as well?????????????????????)
4.Chew/Ewok in AT-ST (Really?????????????????????? +8 defense for a 3 point ewok WTF
5.Ewok Chieftain. Mainly because of what 3 point Ewoks can now get. Though the character itself is ok, just Ewoks did not need this CE.

Whats still needed. Sad
I really think that Old republic need a reserves character within the faction. Its not a case of who the faction can bring in sometimes it's just about getting extra activations. All other factions have this now except Old Republic. A lot play faction pure squads in casual play. Also I think its the only faction without a huge.

markedman247
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 2:16:57 PM
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Agree about the Crimson Nova commander, 4 PTs cheaper and Non-Unique BH's would have been nicer. The fact that Cad Bane can get More damage per shot creeps me out.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 2:22:28 PM
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Umm, my card is saying "Non-unique followers with Bounty Hunter" on the Crimson Nova Commander.
Mando
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:00:36 PM
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dreadtech wrote:

I really think that Old republic need a reserves character within the faction. Its not a case of who the faction can bring in sometimes it's just about getting extra activations. All other factions have this now except Old Republic. A lot play faction pure squads in casual play. Also I think its the only faction without a huge.



This will probably never happen since the faction has the Tactical Officer from the DotF set. Imagine all those rolls of init to get your set reserves number.....bad idea.
Sithborg
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:09:05 PM
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I don't see them getting an Immediate Reserves piece. And Tactician doesn't change the odds what the potential results, unless it is negative. And one Recon is the same has having 20.
markedman247
Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 3:14:16 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Umm, my card is saying "Non-unique followers with Bounty Hunter" on the Crimson Nova Commander.


I must have been looking at Jabba's card and transiting onto this card. Oh well. I like her then. She's great.

Now I remember. It was the Rapport for BH's in general and not non-unique only rapport. That is what bugged me about her.
dreadtech
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:48:01 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
I don't see them getting an Immediate Reserves piece. And Tactician doesn't change the odds what the potential results, unless it is negative. And one Recon is the same has having 20.



Never said Immediate Reserves? But I dont see why not considering what other faction can now get.
However I was taliking about Reserves 20 or 30 on a roll of 11,this still better than been the only faction that can not bring in extra during a game.

However Immediate Reserves would only bring them in line with the rest of the factions can get. So IMO I dont see the problem
TheHutts
Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 1:06:15 PM
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Do Sith or New Republic have reserves? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head in those factions?

Dreadtech, I'm surprised you don't just restrict reserves pieces in bigger games? The reserves pieces are all pretty balanced, or even underpowered, in 200 point competitive, but I could see how they could cause problems in bigger games.
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