|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 1/29/2011
Posts: 1,246
Location: SWMing now in the 936
|
Ok, so the topic here is about the idea/suggestion banning pieces.
Let's consider this in conjunction with a dwindling playbase and a group of vset designers who are feverishly trying with more than a modicum of effort to maintain a pulse and respiration rate. Seems fairly obvious what the answer is and should be without having a to record a vote.
Cor blimey.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/23/2010
Posts: 3,562
Location: The Hutt, New Zealand
|
DARPH NADER wrote:Ok, so the topic here is about the idea/suggestion banning pieces.
Let's consider this in conjunction with a dwinding playbase and a group of vset designers who are feverishly trying with more than a modicum of effort to maintain a pulse and respiration rate. Seems fairly obvious what the answer is and should be without having a to record a vote.
Cor blimey. A big +1. I do find the conjecture about what to ban etc interesting, but really this is the heart of the issue right here.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/2/2013
Posts: 46
|
TheHutts wrote:DARPH NADER wrote:Ok, so the topic here is about the idea/suggestion banning pieces.
Let's consider this in conjunction with a dwinding playbase and a group of vset designers who are feverishly trying with more than a modicum of effort to maintain a pulse and respiration rate. Seems fairly obvious what the answer is and should be without having a to record a vote.
Cor blimey. A big +1. I do find the conjecture about what to ban etc interesting, but really this is the heart of the issue right here. +1 This is the single best thing ever posted in this forum. Ever. OMG I agree on so many levels. Brofist bro.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
|
Prestige Worldwide wrote:TheHutts wrote:DARPH NADER wrote:Ok, so the topic here is about the idea/suggestion banning pieces.
Let's consider this in conjunction with a dwinding playbase and a group of vset designers who are feverishly trying with more than a modicum of effort to maintain a pulse and respiration rate. Seems fairly obvious what the answer is and should be without having a to record a vote.
Cor blimey. A big +1. I do find the conjecture about what to ban etc interesting, but really this is the heart of the issue right here. +1 This is the single best thing ever posted in this forum. Ever. OMG I agree on so many levels. Brofist bro. +1. Couldn't agree more.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 907
Location: Central Pa
|
Cassus fett wrote:I will admit me and my brother have banned each other from using certain pieces and combos before because we felt they took the fun out of the game or caused games to drag on with neither of us doing much. Examples include, Republic and Imperial super stealth squads essentially boiled down to both of us sitting in cover waiting for someone to move out or make a mistake. Squads loaded with Evade charcaters making it impossible for anyone to hit anything, and squads encourgeing lazy play with lots of sitting just around a corner waiting for someone to come within grenade range. All that being said it started to suck after a while because I wanted to use Baccara because I like him and not even for his super stealth, and an all grenade squad while my brother came up with a killer evade squad. so we don't ban anything anymore. Thats how banning affected me and my brother i'm not quite sure how it would effect the entire communty though but i feel it would really restrict the meta down to a few repetitive choices making the game boring. I totally agree with this as an option for the local meta. Locally you'll have people who don't care about the competitive game, others who will. In tournament play like regionals or GenCon the disparity from top to bottom isn't nearly as wide as it can be locally. Someone could be dominating running the same squad every week, or maybe there's one player clearly above the others in ability...or it could simply be certain players don't have access to pieces due to the limits of their collections. If they don't restrict themselves, then banning the pieces they are abusing may be the way to go. Do what you have to do to make the game fun locally.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/23/2008
Posts: 907
Location: Central Pa
|
Cassus fett wrote:Sorry little nooby here what Is SHNN is it a podcast or youtube show? if so sign me up! SHNN (Sith Holonews Network) is a podcast broadcast live every Thursday night at 10pm est on Talkshoe. Like the other Star Wars Miniatures podcast, Star Wars Miniverse, it is available for download on iTunes.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/10/2010
Posts: 111
|
DARPH NADER wrote:Ok, so the topic here is about the idea/suggestion banning pieces.
Let's consider this in conjunction with a dwindling playbase and a group of vset designers who are feverishly trying with more than a modicum of effort to maintain a pulse and respiration rate. Seems fairly obvious what the answer is and should be without having a to record a vote.
Cor blimey. +1 for seeing the forest for the trees +2 for getting all Cockney up in here. +10 for having what alcoholics call a "moment of clarity." (God knows you've had few of those. BTW, thanks for the Root last weekend, Hinkbert!) I will not pontificate becuase Nader and I have exceedingly similar views on this subject. What's more, I only go to a third of the tournies that he does. He's living the meta H.A.M. So I'll just point up and say "what he said."
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
|
I'm just going to ask this:
Where is the evidence that the player base is dwindling, and if it is, shouldn't we also consider that some dwindling might occur from new V-Set pieces that seem overwhelming? Can we at least entertain that thought for a moment?
|
|
Rank: Rancor
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/25/2009
Posts: 33
|
Thought entertained  However, i don't think thats really the problem here. The basis of these collectible games is that new players will see it in a shop window, want in, and become part of the community as older players leave, and that existing players continue because of the new combinations that come out for them to collect. Once the commercial company (WOTC in this case) drops a game, the natural thing is for new players to completely drop off, while old players keep it going for maybe a year or two before becoming bored with the now-fixed combinations of peices/squads that are now available. That effect is particularly apparent at the high-end of minis when WOTC dropped it, because there were only 4-5 (or something like that) top tier squads, which would be played with minor alterations at every regional from there on in. What the V-sets have done is continue the production of new minis creating new combos and strategies for current players to enjoy. Therefore they've actually prolonged the life of minis by a considerable number of years. (In my opinion, its days are still numbered though) because current players have something new exciting to build around every year. Banning peices would (IMO) reverse this a little, by taking squads away from the current meta and restricting play
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
|
Minitank HT wrote:Thought entertained However, i don't think thats really the problem here. The basis of these collectible games is that new players will see it in a shop window, want in, and become part of the community as older players leave, and that existing players continue because of the new combinations that come out for them to collect. Once the commercial company (WOTC in this case) drops a game, the natural thing is for new players to completely drop off, while old players keep it going for maybe a year or two before becoming bored with the now-fixed combinations of peices/squads that are now available. That effect is particularly apparent at the high-end of minis when WOTC dropped it, because there were only 4-5 (or something like that) top tier squads, which would be played with minor alterations at every regional from there on in. What the V-sets have done is continue the production of new minis creating new combos and strategies for current players to enjoy. Therefore they've actually prolonged the life of minis by a considerable number of years. (In my opinion, its days are still numbered though) because current players have something new exciting to build around every year. Banning peices would (IMO) reverse this a little, by taking squads away from the current meta and restricting play I understand that, but I can assure you that there are veteran players who *have* quit the game because of the V-Set. I know because I was one of them. My point is that if we don't at least consider this, we can all talk in circle without ever finding a problem. I came back because I missed the social aspect of the game, and was fortunate enough to have a group of friends that sucked it up and returned too. But we've all seen the ragequit attitude towards the V-Set here more than once.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
|
I think you'd see more boredomquit (no change in the meta) or frustration quit (managing errata and/or banning) much more than ragequit (I don't like piece(s) X), if we did anything other than what we're doing right now. There's ragequit for any live game, too. You just don't notice it as much because just as many people come into the game as exit the game.
Honestly, I don't see how you can look at the extreme variety in regional winners and gencon competitors and conclude that anything is broken. Negative Play Experience, perhaps, but that's a local issue. Perhaps deserving a local ban if the community agrees - but that's all.
And given how easy it is to get involved as a playtester and eventually move up into more important roles, this is the last collectible game anyone should complain about regarding the power of pieces... after all, we are getting the game that we (collectively) want. And the more you work, the bigger your voice will be in the collective "we".
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/3/2010
Posts: 354
|
That was my 2 cents, that's all. I know everyone here loves the V-Set, so I won't bother adding anything thing else other than we all must keep in mind that, from a casual player's point of view, the V-Set can be overwhelming, and there have been instances where the V-Set has led players to quit. That's all I'm getting at.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/14/2009
Posts: 1,728
|
Darth_Reignir wrote:That was my 2 cents, that's all. I know everyone here loves the V-Set, so I won't bother adding anything thing else other than we all must keep in mind that, from a casual player's point of view, the V-Set can be overwhelming, and there have been instances where the V-Set has led players to quit. That's all I'm getting at. I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure anything could be done to stop that. Especially at this point, since most of the really strong pieces were in the first few sets.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/10/2010
Posts: 111
|
Darth_Reignir wrote:shouldn't we also consider that some dwindling might occur from new V-Set pieces that seem overwhelming? For me, Reignir, it's the frequency of the sets. I can't keep up with all these figgies. Not for nothing, though, these VSets have turned the tournament meta into a hot, steamy mess. And I think that's fantastic! You just don't know what you're going to get nowadays when you sit down at the table. Some new conflaguration? A tried and true classic? But I'm off topic a bit. My vote's a no.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/14/2009
Posts: 1,728
|
captaingig wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:shouldn't we also consider that some dwindling might occur from new V-Set pieces that seem overwhelming? For me, Reignir, it's the frequency of the sets. I can't keep up with all these figgies. Not for nothing, though, these VSets have turned the tournament meta into a hot, steamy mess. It's not every day I get called a "tournament meta."
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/14/2008
Posts: 2,063
|
captaingig wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:shouldn't we also consider that some dwindling might occur from new V-Set pieces that seem overwhelming? For me, Reignir, it's the frequency of the sets. I can't keep up with all these figgies. Not for nothing, though, these VSets have turned the tournament meta into a hot, steamy mess. And I think that's fantastic! You just don't know what you're going to get nowadays when you sit down at the table. Some new conflaguration? A tried and true classic? But I'm off topic a bit. My vote's a no. It's been said the interval in sets and the size will be varied. This may curb the concern on the speed and scope.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator, Rules Guy
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 5,201
|
Darth_Reignir wrote:
I understand that, but I can assure you that there are veteran players who *have* quit the game because of the V-Set. I know because I was one of them. My point is that if we don't at least consider this, we can all talk in circle without ever finding a problem.
I came back because I missed the social aspect of the game, and was fortunate enough to have a group of friends that sucked it up and returned too.
But we've all seen the ragequit attitude towards the V-Set here more than once.
But here's the thing, you can't please everyone. And the people who would be most concerned with a "universal" ban are those that are interested in competitive tournament play. And for the most part, those people have been thrilled with the Vsets, because they have fixed the rather stagnent competitive play enviroment that we had under WOTC. Now, I do think a bit too much focus has been on making "top tier" stuff. I had a few issues with my designs getting powered up to a level I had not originally intended in V5. While the quote, "If it's not broken at the highest level of competiveness in the game, than it is not broken", is true, a piece can be unfun, if not broken. As for the frequency, we are cutting the sets down in size after V7. We couldn't mess with the V7 list, due to the custom sealed event at Gencon, with the pieces already under construction.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 522
Location: Chicago
|
Darth_Reignir wrote:That was my 2 cents, that's all. I know everyone here loves the V-Set, so I won't bother adding anything thing else other than we all must keep in mind that, from a casual player's point of view, the V-Set can be overwhelming, and there have been instances where the V-Set has led players to quit. That's all I'm getting at. I'm not sure if everyone here loves the entirety of the Vsets, they love what they are trying to achieve but then when you ask players individually WHAT they like in the Vset you are probably going to get all manner of different opinions. For example, i'm not a big fan of Mace LotLS, however it seems like a significant number of people enjoy the piece. There are people who love the lancer and i would say quite a few don't. Also, as counters are brought in to curb abilities and keep the variety moving forward it adjusts the game balance. You remove some pieces from this game balance and things start to get unsteady. Admittedly, with the massive amount of variety of figures and the same if not more variety in power differences between figures its a pretty rocky precipice the game exists on. However, that could be considered a reason not to remove pieces. So the follow on question to this poll is, Which pieces do you Ban? Something always rises when you knock off the perceived "top" figs and so rather than improve balance you will often times push certain squad build to the fore. All you have to do to witness this is create a meta by banning 10 figs from an established meta and play it for a few months. The cream will rise and you are left with a new set of "problem figs" that weren't an issue before because they were kept in check with what you had before. So how do you select what figs to Ban? There doesn't seem to be figs that consistently win everything and match ups are everything. do it democratically and you risk driving away a few players who either don't want figs banned or who didn't like the choice of figs that were banned. People who "rage quit" will always exist, they always have done. The likelihood is that these people would probably have left anyway because if it takes the Vsets to drive them off then they were already bored of the WotC set because they still exist and they could ignore the vsets and keep on with WotC stuff. If you like the game you can still play it without the vsets as it seems they do in Europe. The vsets were a method to attempt to balance the game and keep the variety flowing but they arn't and never will be essential. The major issue seems to be at the moment that there is too much variety being introduced for the amount of time people want to invest in playing the game.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/31/2010
Posts: 1,628
|
fingersandteeth wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:That was my 2 cents, that's all. I know everyone here loves the V-Set, so I won't bother adding anything thing else other than we all must keep in mind that, from a casual player's point of view, the V-Set can be overwhelming, and there have been instances where the V-Set has led players to quit. That's all I'm getting at. I'm not sure if everyone here loves the entirety of the Vsets, they love what they are trying to achieve but then when you ask players individually WHAT they like in the Vset you are probably going to get all manner of different opinions. For example, i'm not a big fan of Mace LotLS, however it seems like a significant number of people enjoy the piece. There are people who love the lancer and i would say quite a few don't. Also, as counters are brought in to curb abilities and keep the variety moving forward it adjusts the game balance. You remove some pieces from this game balance and things start to get unsteady. Admittedly, with the massive amount of variety of figures and the same if not more variety in power differences between figures its a pretty rocky precipice the game exists on. However, that could be considered a reason not to remove pieces. So the follow on question to this poll is, Which pieces do you Ban? Something always rises when you knock off the perceived "top" figs and so rather than improve balance you will often times push certain squad build to the fore. All you have to do to witness this is create a meta by banning 10 figs from an established meta and play it for a few months. The cream will rise and you are left with a new set of "problem figs" that weren't an issue before because they were kept in check with what you had before. So how do you select what figs to Ban? There doesn't seem to be figs that consistently win everything and match ups are everything. do it democratically and you risk driving away a few players who either don't want figs banned or who didn't like the choice of figs that were banned. People who "rage quit" will always exist, they always have done. The likelihood is that these people would probably have left anyway because if it takes the Vsets to drive them off then they were already bored of the WotC set because they still exist and they could ignore the vsets and keep on with WotC stuff. If you like the game you can still play it without the vsets as it seems they do in Europe. The vsets were a method to attempt to balance the game and keep the variety flowing but they arn't and never will be essential. The major issue seems to be at the moment that there is too much variety being introduced for the amount of time people want to invest in playing the game. I love this post +1. I have at times been ready to quit this game, and do for like a month or two, but then i get asked by my playgroup to help playtest the next upcoming set, i do hesitantly at first but when we start and i see some of the new pieces and new ideas coming out in the next sets i get excited and start playing again. I do feel like the major problem with the current state of the Vsets is timing. There are to many sets coming out and not enough playtesting getting done. I feel like if a piece does not get enough playtesting the designers ALWAYS scale it down and err on the side of not powerful enough instead of to powerful which is always a good thing. The reason i think this happens is because there are pieces people want to playtest and then there are others that no one really cares about, such as low costing fringe pieces, alot of the non-uniques etc. and as a communitty i think we could ask to do more for playtesting and giving quality feedback during the testing period of the sets and a lot of these overpowered/broken arguments will disappear. I for one used to complain ALL the time, i know i still do every so often, but i took the advice of so many others on here, got involved and i love the game so much more for it. so if you have a problem with the current state of the game get involved, ask to help playtest and turn in quality reports and watch the designers listen to your concerns and have fun with the game.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/2/2013
Posts: 46
|
I'm confused how the excuse people have for V-Sets being overwhelming is the amount of abilities in a set amount of time. Now maybe I'll come off as a troll, but I find it hard to believe that a set released every couple of months is overwhelming. If people can read books, and magazines, how is it so hard to remember abilities on a card?
|
|
|
Guest |