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Dr Daman wrote:Against Kez's Naboo Troopers squad, it was the Stormtrooper on Repulsor Sled that did the damage with a second round move to kill Mon Mothma
With all due respect to both you and kez, this one comes down to a single major mistake in that matchup. I'm not saying the Naboo Troopers are an auto win against Daala squads either but they should frequently take an upper hand. Even if it's the Elite Scout (or whatever they are - 50 hp and stealth) variant because you can swarm a lower activation squad like that even better. Now because this Daala issue is coming out of NZ I believe it's more valid than what we might see coming from an individual playgroup or groups that frequently plagued by too narrow a meta. I do believe there are valid counters that are still competitive but at the same time it appears as if Daala could serve to restrict the meta. How does a Talon Karrde squad fair? How will Sith squads fair? The NR? There are a lot of fun, otherwise competitive squads that could be pointless to run with Daala lurking. Hopefully that's a bit drastic. All of that being said she very much needs to be legal for the entirety of the regional season imo. We need that kind of format and strong look at her to determine how that will look. That will also show which of her attributes could be tweaked to still let her be competitive but not overpowered if it's determined a change is necessary. The Zyggerian issue seems easily solved. Change to living Fringe only with an equal or lesser cost and you are still left with a viable piece but tamed enough so that some of these already powerful squads aren't made even better. But then again, perhaps it can be left alone to help balance something that Daala could potentially lose to still make her squads viable.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Personal whining.
I finally took the time to focus on a particular build and even practice with it. I guess I stumbled onto something good, but looks like it might be too good and now it might wind up being banned. Ugh. Possibly without even taking it to regionals, and I definitely won't be able to sneak up on anybody with it. Oh well.
Ok. Sorry. Carry on. This does suck. I've had the rug pulled out from under me TWICE right before GenCon (once with the GOWK debacle - I knew how to beat him and was looking forward to everyone playing him, but then he got banned and everyone played my squad. The other time was an 11th hour map list change that hurt my squad, got 9th at GenCon both of those years). To me the worst time for changes like this to happen is after Regionals. The sooner the change the better if it's going to happen.
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Dr Daman wrote:playing Daala was an NPE for me as I gained no satisfaction from winning that game. Sure, I capitalised on his mistake by Kez and that's what this game is about, but what I don't like about her is that it takes almost no strategy to run her squads. I now feel that in the current meta in NZ, I have to run her (or perhaps a counter) or I'll probably lose (and as people who know me will tell you, I HATE to lose). If I build a competitive squad now, then I have to factor in all variants of Daala squads and its too hard to come up with anything that can compete with that. This speaks volumes to me. When the guy with the undefeated squad says it's an NPE for himself, there is a big issue.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Dr Daman wrote:playing Daala was an NPE for me as I gained no satisfaction from winning that game. Sure, I capitalised on his mistake by Kez and that's what this game is about, but what I don't like about her is that it takes almost no strategy to run her squads. I now feel that in the current meta in NZ, I have to run her (or perhaps a counter) or I'll probably lose (and as people who know me will tell you, I HATE to lose). If I build a competitive squad now, then I have to factor in all variants of Daala squads and its too hard to come up with anything that can compete with that. This speaks volumes to me. When the guy with the undefeated squad says it's an NPE for himself, there is a big issue. +1 I've been running Daala since this issue came out of NZ, and I have to agree with Dr. Daman.
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urbanjedi wrote:we certainly need more data at this point. I mean is this just a case of Daala being a true tier one squad and we just don't know how to properly deal with it at this point? or is there something truly overpowered that may require some action. We have certainly been down this road before from Boba, BH to GOWK to Bastilla to Poggle, etc.
Dr Daman, have you ever played it against a Yobuck squad? or a corran horn squad? or Gowk/Mace? Any of the things that on paper should give it problems? I read your report about the naboo, and would def like to explore that more to see if it was just a mistake by Kez or if Daala beats Naboo pretty regular. I think the main problem is that the one good counter to swarm squads like this one was galloping attack/strafe. We have now made so many counters to strafe/gallop available to every faction that those once dominant squads are now becoming much less competitive. I think adding all the counters to strafe/gallop was definetely needed, so kudo's to the design team for making them. These were a large NPE for many, but it seems to me that in designing a counter to a NPE we gave rise to a brand new NPE which needs more counters, because its not just the insane range that makes the Daala squads good, it is the insane amount of activations and the small amount of points your opponent gets for when they do take the troopers out. I can definetly see why they are being so dominant in NZ. I predict the same thing to happen here. Storm Commando's aren't anywhere near in the same boat as these things, since the Strom Commando's had a low attack. not so with these troopers it seems.
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I agree with some others who say that if we go the route of Ban/Errata, then it needs to be BEFORE the Regional season hits. Simply put, the game can't handle a meta-restricting NPE right now. If even the people winning with Daala are experiencing an NPE, then I wonder (actually I don't) how the people feel who are losing to Daala.
We've got 2 major tourneys to play before Regionals start (FrostyCon and HamilCon), and both of those tourneys will have plenty of highly skilled players. I suggest that we make a decision after those tournaments are over; and we'll need to make the decision quickly, because people will want time to prepare their regional squads against whatever the meta will be.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Dr Daman wrote:playing Daala was an NPE for me as I gained no satisfaction from winning that game. Sure, I capitalised on his mistake by Kez and that's what this game is about, but what I don't like about her is that it takes almost no strategy to run her squads. I now feel that in the current meta in NZ, I have to run her (or perhaps a counter) or I'll probably lose (and as people who know me will tell you, I HATE to lose). If I build a competitive squad now, then I have to factor in all variants of Daala squads and its too hard to come up with anything that can compete with that. This speaks volumes to me. When the guy with the undefeated squad says it's an NPE for himself, there is a big issue. It has been pretty easy winning. I generally chalked that up to Andy's insistence on playing squads he thinks are fun instead of specifically trying to beat Daala - even when he knows that's what I'll run. It was 'fun' in the sense that I thought I was getting to be decent with a tier 1 squad. But if it's strong enough that the regionals become Daala vs anti-Daala, that's not fun for anyone.
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I guess my sentiment about waiting until after regionals was specifically based upon avoiding hasty changes that don't adequately address the true problem. Ultimately having a good alternative to Trawn squads for the Empire is a good thing. That thought process was based upon making 1 change when we knew what would be best but I suppose taking action prior to Regionals and then going back for a more permanent change is fine too.
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FlyingArrow wrote:[quote]
a. Troopers get a great movement breaker in Zygerrian
b. Troopers get another great movement breaker in Charging Fire
c. Troopers get +4/+20 damage from Daala's Prideful and the Charging Fire bonus
d. Snowtroopers get a 3 point reduction in their cost from two new stacking Rapport
e. Snowtroopers get +4/+10 damage from a new squad ability and an old one that is now useful due to (a) being able to fit in more troopers due to Rapport and (b) counting every ally as having the same name
One of the major issues is that these all happened in the same set. In general it's a bad idea to try and do everything at once, but this is what happened here. As opposed to what has happened most of the rest of the time with other vsets, where pieces were added over multiple sets. Little tweaks that add up, as opposed to one sweeping change with multiple pieces all at once. Playtesting has been declining and that is part of the problem. To my knowledge Daala and Zygerrians were not play-tested together. From what I can tell the designers didn't really think about the Zygerrians with imperial troopers. The Zygerrians caused 10 damage at the end of the turn (basically Pawn of the Darkside as an SA) for a long time during the design process, but virtually everyone shot that down since really it's main use would be poggle bombs and Naboo Trooper death shots - two things that did not need help. So it was a fairly late in the process change that the Zygerrians just gave movement, and to my knowledge it wasn't playtested at all with the final way it ended up.
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FlyingArrow wrote:
It has been pretty easy winning. I generally chalked that up to Andy's insistence on playing squads he thinks are fun instead of specifically trying to beat Daala - even when he knows that's what I'll run. It was 'fun' in the sense that I thought I was getting to be decent with a tier 1 squad. But if it's strong enough that the regionals become Daala vs anti-Daala, that's not fun for anyone.
I do tend to play 1.5 to tier 2 squads coupled with the fact that I tend to play Tankier squad. I have brought a few counter squads but I mainly I have just been playing to try out new pieces and was chalking it up to 1) I didn't build an optimal squad for the new pieces. 2) I was still new with the pieces. 3) The type of squad I enjoy will just do poorly against Daala. 4) I'm terribly stubborn sometimes and I'LL MAKE THIS WORK DARN IT. I knew Daala was tough but I did not realize I was not alone in this assessment. The next time we play I would like to try a few counter squads. Galactic Funk wrote: That thought process was based upon making 1 change when we knew what would be best but I suppose taking action prior to Regionals and then going back for a more permanent change is fine too. I think that if action is taken before regionals it should certainly be reevaluated after regionals.
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If I may be so bold I would suggest these changes. I think the Kurb the issues simply by making small one word erratum to 3 separate pieces. I think it maintains the intent and playability of the pieces without completely banning them and also allows them to be competitive.
1. Admiral Dalaa gives out charging fire (drop the +10). She already boosts dmg via prideful, no reason she should do it twice. Prideful is indisruptable and board wide. It's enough.
2. Snowtrooper commander - rapport 2 reduced to rapport 1. It always seemed excessive, especially when daala also has rapport. 5 point snows are still a steal.
3. Slave driver - this only affects living non-unique fringe. Uggies and brutes were the intended target with focus away from bombs so make it fringe. It's too late to put the dmg back on and anyway that opens up vong gran bombs so it best left off. The zyg is still a game breaker, swap squads can still use them for extended reach which most likely helps the tempo control swappers most (imps).
With these changes I believe Dalaa will still be tough and possibly still t1 but the output is curbed and the movement is toned down. The most attractive part of these errata is the small changes needed to implement.
The
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Here's one way to think about it... consider last year's meta. At least 12 viable squad types. 8 different ones in the top 8 plus 4 more that did well in regionals. (Thread reference: http://www.bloomilk.com/Forums/default.aspx?g=posts&m=143311 ) Let's take two different Daala builds: Dr. Daman's Raxus-Flim build, and a more flexible Pellaeon-Snowtroopers build. How would they fare against last year's 12? My guesses (others may disagree): 1. Lancer and Poggle bombs (NPE Extreme): Plays both Daala versions close. Probably has an advantage but not a strong one. 2. Old Republic Master Thon (Thon Song): I think Daala dominates this. Repulse is powerful and might be effective on some maps but in general there are too many troopers to be able to catch a significant number in the Repulse bubble. 3. NR: Luke/Jarael/Marn (Prof Luke's Art Class): Not sure on this one. So tricky with the bribery. Call it close on both. 4a. Republic Naboo (RNAF): I think either Daala would beat the RNAF. 4b. Republic Naboo Troopers: Troopers would play Daala close. 5. Rebel Ackbar: Raxus Prime has a strong advantage. Plays Snowtroopers close. 6. Kyle/Jan Ors: Daala has a strong advantage. 7. Imperial Desann: Daala has a strong advantage. 8. Ben Guins: Overwhelming advantage for Snowtroopers, strong advantage for Raxus Prime 9. Cad Bane & Thrawn: Daala has a strong advantage 10. Mandalorian: Daala has an advantage, but not a strong one 11. Malgus/Caedus: Daala has a strong advantage. 12. Caedus/Zannah: Snowtroopers have an overwhelming advantage. Raxus Prime have an advantage. (Higher attack/damage matters a lot here. Adding 2 more: 13. Skybuck: Plays Daala even. I would have expected it to dominate Daala, but haven't heard any play reports indicating that. 14. MaceGOWK: Snowtroopers have an advantage. MaceGOWK have advantage over Raxus Prime. (Higher attack matters a lot here.) In short, out of 15 squads (counting both Naboo), by my count: 8 squads: both Daala versions have an advantage 3 squads: can play one version close but not the other 3 squads: play Daala even (Naboo troopers, Skybuck, Prof Luke) 1 squad: slight advantage (Lancer/Poggle) Others may disagree (interested to hear other opinions), but I thought I would put it out there.
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I don not think a Ban is a way to go.
At this point I am leaning towards Errata.
1. Slave Driver only moves fringe pieces
2. Daala's CE gives Charging Fire (not +10)
3. Daala loses Rapport
These are the three I would suggest.
I believe these changes would not completely neuter Daala squads, but reign them in just enough. You'd still see them played, but they'd not be so meta-warping.
For gameplay #1 also takes out Poggle Bomb and Naboo Trooper abuse, which are nice side effects in my opinion. It feels like swap fodder extension becomes the next main use for it, but that is not as problematic as Imp troopers, Naboo troopers or poggle bombs.
#2 takes away a bit of power which wasn't necessary in the first place.
#3 will cut most squads activations by a couple, which seems totally reasonable.
Those changes make sense not only for gameplay purposes, but in universe as well. The thought of a Zygerrian whipping an Imperial Trooper to do it's bidding is ridiculous. Some random cheap fringe piece? Sure, now that's a bit more believable. And to my memory Daala had some fanatical followers, but not a sweeping rapport with all non-uniques. She may make them run faster, but not hit harder.
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fingersandteeth wrote:If I may be so bold I would suggest these changes. I think the Kurb the issues simply by making small one word erratum to 3 separate pieces. I think it maintains the intent and playability of the pieces without completely banning them and also allows them to be competitive.
1. Admiral Dalaa gives out charging fire (drop the +10). She already boosts dmg via prideful, no reason she should do it twice. Prideful is indisruptable and board wide. It's enough.
2. Snowtrooper commander - rapport 2 reduced to rapport 1. It always seemed excessive, especially when daala also has rapport. 5 point snows are still a steal.
3. Slave driver - this only affects living non-unique fringe. Uggies and brutes were the intended target with focus away from bombs so make it fringe. It's too late to put the dmg back on and anyway that opens up vong gran bombs so it best left off. The zyg is still a game breaker, swap squads can still use them for extended reach which most likely helps the tempo control swappers most (imps).
With these changes I believe Dalaa will still be tough and possibly still t1 but the output is curbed and the movement is toned down. The most attractive part of these errata is the small changes needed to implement.
TimmerB123 wrote:I don not think a Ban is a way to go.
At this point I am leaning towards Errata.
1. Slave Driver only moves fringe pieces
2. Daala's CE gives Charging Fire (not +10)
3. Daala loses Rapport
These are the three I would suggest.
I believe these changes would not completely neuter Daala squads, but reign them in just enough. You'd still see them played, but they'd not be so meta-warping.
For gameplay #1 also takes out Poggle Bomb and Naboo Trooper abuse, which are nice side effects in my opinion. It feels like swap fodder extension becomes the next main use for it, but that is not as problematic as Imp troopers, Naboo troopers or poggle bombs.
#2 takes away a bit of power which wasn't necessary in the first place.
#3 will cut most squads activations by a couple, which seems totally reasonable.
Those changes make sense not only for gameplay purposes, but in universe as well. The thought of a Zygerrian whipping an Imperial Trooper to do it's bidding is ridiculous. Some random cheap fringe piece? Sure, now that's a bit more believable. And to my memory Daala had some fanatical followers, but not a sweeping rapport with all non-uniques. She may make them run faster, but not hit harder.
Great minds think alike. We were typing at the same time. 
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Wouldn't just playing Momow help a lot vs Daala? Most squads have a way to move him around and he can nuke almost any swarmer daala uses because most have 10hp. Ricky's championship team would actually do really well against it i think. Bring in Momow and toss him deep to War T a group of them and save anakin for cleanup agsint the rest.
I think people overreact to changes in the meta of this game. Dalaa squads are all about dudes with 20 or less HP. Guess what people aren't using that much anymore? Yobuck, a piece that's really good at killing dudes with 20 or less HP. Daala teams make playing Yoda a really good option.
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TimmerB123 wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:If I may be so bold I would suggest these changes. I think the Kurb the issues simply by making small one word erratum to 3 separate pieces. I think it maintains the intent and playability of the pieces without completely banning them and also allows them to be competitive.
1. Admiral Dalaa gives out charging fire (drop the +10). She already boosts dmg via prideful, no reason she should do it twice. Prideful is indisruptable and board wide. It's enough.
2. Snowtrooper commander - rapport 2 reduced to rapport 1. It always seemed excessive, especially when daala also has rapport. 5 point snows are still a steal.
3. Slave driver - this only affects living non-unique fringe. Uggies and brutes were the intended target with focus away from bombs so make it fringe. It's too late to put the dmg back on and anyway that opens up vong gran bombs so it best left off. The zyg is still a game breaker, swap squads can still use them for extended reach which most likely helps the tempo control swappers most (imps).
With these changes I believe Dalaa will still be tough and possibly still t1 but the output is curbed and the movement is toned down. The most attractive part of these errata is the small changes needed to implement.
TimmerB123 wrote:I don not think a Ban is a way to go.
At this point I am leaning towards Errata.
1. Slave Driver only moves fringe pieces
2. Daala's CE gives Charging Fire (not +10)
3. Daala loses Rapport
These are the three I would suggest.
I believe these changes would not completely neuter Daala squads, but reign them in just enough. You'd still see them played, but they'd not be so meta-warping.
For gameplay #1 also takes out Poggle Bomb and Naboo Trooper abuse, which are nice side effects in my opinion. It feels like swap fodder extension becomes the next main use for it, but that is not as problematic as Imp troopers, Naboo troopers or poggle bombs.
#2 takes away a bit of power which wasn't necessary in the first place.
#3 will cut most squads activations by a couple, which seems totally reasonable.
Those changes make sense not only for gameplay purposes, but in universe as well. The thought of a Zygerrian whipping an Imperial Trooper to do it's bidding is ridiculous. Some random cheap fringe piece? Sure, now that's a bit more believable. And to my memory Daala had some fanatical followers, but not a sweeping rapport with all non-uniques. She may make them run faster, but not hit harder.
Great minds think alike. We were typing at the same time. Well, while this sounds great, I think that a ban would be easier and the better way to go. It just cuts out all the problems an errata places for new players, people getting back into the game, and it is easier for people at tournaments to not have to remember what switches have been made. You are also talking about problems with rapport and the squad builder a lot of work goes into all this, a ban is simply like a one sentence fix.... Daala is banned. :)
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Weeks wrote:Wouldn't just playing Momow help a lot vs Daala? Most squads have a way to move him around and he can nuke almost any swarmer daala uses because most have 10hp. Ricky's championship team would actually do really well against it i think. Bring in Momow and toss him deep to War T a group of them and save anakin for cleanup agsint the rest.
I think people overreact to changes in the meta of this game. Dalaa squads are all about dudes with 20 or less HP. Guess what people aren't using that much anymore? Yobuck, a piece that's really good at killing dudes with 20 or less HP. Daala teams make playing Yoda a really good option. yeah but great so we have daala and yoda on kybuck........ thnx. I think people are more worried about the restrictions of what daala does to the meta. Good luck getting momaw out to do that when these ppl run 24+ squares and still attack and can just kill momaw.... even with levitation the stormtroopers have a longer range then he does.
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droidadmiral wrote:Weeks wrote:Wouldn't just playing Momow help a lot vs Daala? Most squads have a way to move him around and he can nuke almost any swarmer daala uses because most have 10hp. Ricky's championship team would actually do really well against it i think. Bring in Momow and toss him deep to War T a group of them and save anakin for cleanup agsint the rest.
I think people overreact to changes in the meta of this game. Dalaa squads are all about dudes with 20 or less HP. Guess what people aren't using that much anymore? Yobuck, a piece that's really good at killing dudes with 20 or less HP. Daala teams make playing Yoda a really good option. yeah but great so we have daala and yoda on kybuck........ thnx. I think people are more worried about the restrictions of what daala does to the meta. Good luck getting momaw out to do that when these ppl run 24+ squares and still attack and can just kill momaw.... even with levitation the stormtroopers have a longer range then he does. And they usually outactivate, often heavily. So you just kill the threat at the end of the round before it can get in strike range. Once again, if it wasn't for the Zygerrians, THEN some of these other things might be able to counter Daala squads (Momaw, Anakin Solo, Arica, etc). But because of the insane reach, I don't see them working well.
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Weeks wrote:Wouldn't just playing Momow help a lot vs Daala? Most squads have a way to move him around and he can nuke almost any swarmer daala uses because most have 10hp. Ricky's championship team would actually do really well against it i think. Bring in Momow and toss him deep to War T a group of them and save anakin for cleanup agsint the rest.
I think people overreact to changes in the meta of this game. Dalaa squads are all about dudes with 20 or less HP. Guess what people aren't using that much anymore? Yobuck, a piece that's really good at killing dudes with 20 or less HP. Daala teams make playing Yoda a really good option. Momaw is helpful vs Raxus Prime Troopers but makes no difference at all vs 20hp Snowtroopers. Besides, if I see Momaw on the table, I'm not going to congregate a bunch of my Raxus Troopers in a spot where Momaw can reach them. This is one thing that people don't always seem to recognize about the mass-kill pieces (Yobuck, Lancer, Kaan, Momaw, Arica): mass-kills only work if you GIVE it to them. That is, if you have 6 mice and group them all together, Yobuck will eat them for breakfast and you'll be left staring dumbstruck at how Yobuck just pwned you. But if you spread out your pieces (which is not a hindrance, with Charging Fire) then Yobuck will get what...3 or maybe 4 Troopers on a good run? This exact thing happened in 2009. I was playing my Skybuck against Philip's Dark Landspeeder squad. I eliminated ALL his fodder in one gallop, in addition to Dodonna and Leia; it was a Skybuck player's dream. It took 15 minutes. So after the game he asked me how he can counter that with his squad, which had something like 10 mice/ugs. I replied, "Simple: spread out your fodder all over the place so that I can only reach a few of them on any gallop." The next game we played (in the Championship, I think), he smoked me. I honestly don't think that a skilled opponent will give you many options for a game-changing WarThroat/Gallop/Strafe very often. You'll certainly take a few pieces every time, but there IS a limit to the range on a mass-kill piece. This is why squads that look like Daala-counters on paper are tending not to actually do the job.
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I wish we could solve it by changing just one, but that may not be possible. What's a reasonable (i.e. Tier 1 but not game breaking) attack/damage for a swarm of 10-15 troopers who cost 4 or 5 points each? fingersandteeth wrote:1. Admiral Dalaa gives out charging fire (drop the +10). She already boosts dmg via prideful, no reason she should do it twice. Prideful is indisruptable and board wide. It's enough. Daala has been viewed as a Thrawn alternative. Hence Prideful replacing Opportunist as the +4/+10 boost. Part of the problem is that troopers can still get that +4/+10 from Opportunist. And with Snowtrooper commanders there's another +8/+10. Dropping the +10 on Charging Fire still leaves +20atk/40dmg (and possibly Twin) Snowtroopers. Is that okay? Quote:
2. Snowtrooper commander - rapport 2 reduced to rapport 1. It always seemed excessive, especially when daala also has rapport. 5 point snows are still a steal.
Is 80dmg from 5 point troopers ok? Quote:
3. Slave driver - this only affects living non-unique fringe. Uggies and brutes were the intended target with focus away from bombs so make it fringe. It's too late to put the dmg back on and anyway that opens up vong gran bombs so it best left off. The zyg is still a game breaker, swap squads can still use them for extended reach which most likely helps the tempo control swappers most (imps).
I think changing it to speed instead of double speed would be a better approach. Leaving it as double speed keeps the 24/36/48 square charge available as an option, just not with a trooper. It solves the Daala problem, but I think it pushes the problem down the road until we have an accidentally powerful 8 point fringe piece. (Which may already exist but we haven't explored it yet.) If the range is cut in half, I think it leaves drive/charge as a strong option but no longer broken. Maxes out at 30 squares but that takes 4 activations: 2 Zygerrians, Flim, and Charging Fire. With one Zygerrian you only get out 18 squares.
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