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As I said in the very first post in this discussion, I feel like this question won't even be much of an issue 3-6 months from now. With the arrival of a new v-set and the conclussion of the tourney season, I believe people will start building new squad ideas and Daala play will drop off for the most part. I truly believe that the best choice may be to wait until dec./jan. when the next floor update rolls around and then reissue this poll. It was a good idea to gather some data right after gencon while everyone has it fresh in their memory, but I think it would be really interesting to see how people feel after we give the game a chance to auto correct the way it has seemed to in response to some of the previously mentioned NPEs. I know the only reason I even played her at gencon was so that it couldn't be said that she didn't get a fair chance. I just feel like the focus has been so strongly on her this entire season that people are ready to do something different for a while and that in time she won't be any worse than say poggle bombs or mace/gowk. will people still bring her to tourneys, absolutely, but not in the numbers and consistency they have this season, and that is why I believe a wait and see attitude may serve us best here as a community.
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gholli69 makes a very good point.
One other consideration is the effect she has on design of Imperial pieces involving troopers.
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gholli69 wrote:As I said in the very first post in this discussion, I feel like this question won't even be much of an issue 3-6 months from now. With the arrival of a new v-set and the conclussion of the tourney season, I believe people will start building new squad ideas and Daala play will drop off for the most part. I truly believe that the best choice may be to wait until dec./jan. when the next floor update rolls around and then reissue this poll. It was a good idea to gather some data right after gencon while everyone has it fresh in their memory, but I think it would be really interesting to see how people feel after we give the game a chance to auto correct the way it has seemed to in response to some of the previously mentioned NPEs. I know the only reason I even played her at gencon was so that it couldn't be said that she didn't get a fair chance. I just feel like the focus has been so strongly on her this entire season that people are ready to do something different for a while and that in time she won't be any worse than say poggle bombs or mace/gowk. will people still bring her to tourneys, absolutely, but not in the numbers and consistency they have this season, and that is why I believe a wait and see attitude may serve us best here as a community. is there anything major happening between now and then where she can even make a further impact? the problem is that sure if there are no big tournaments there will be nothing said about her because no is playing her in their play groups for fun. there is sufficient data this season that backs up the results of this poll.... people just don't like her. 70%+ of voters want to do something with her. I seriously doubt that the powers that be will do anything about daala herself. it was like pulling teeth to get them to change her the first time along with the slaver, with many of them saying she wasn't a problem to begin with. i just made the poll because i believed that many people felt that way i do, that she is just bad for the game, and never imagined ban her would have received so many votes. but there it is. Now its in the hands of the ones making the judgment calls for all of us to do with this info what they please.
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When I heard on the SHNN episode last week, they guys said that there was a focus on trying to counter Daala in the tournament (not meaning that all squads were built to counter her, but at least had her in mind) and even through this, 2 Daala squads made it to the top 8. I think Daala squads could be compared to Naboo Trooper Deahtshot squads, in that anyone can pick a Daala squad up and do well with it even with little experience, but the really skilled players dominate everyone. I'm glad the Weeks won with Mandalorians, but the fact that 2 Daala squads made it to the final 8 even with Yobuck and other counters running around proves that she might need a little tweaking. I like what she brings to the Imperials, and I like Prideful, but I think it is a major NPE when the opponent runs 12-15 5pt troopers all shooting at obscene attack for 40 dmg shots. It slows the game down a lot when there at 20+ activations with activation control thrown in there.you might get to 4 or 5 rounds at that rate. If prideful was limited to 10pt or higher pieces, she'd still be viable, still have good squads and the game would be quicker. You could still run a swarm of 5pt troopers also with her if Prideful was changed, its just they would be shooting at a lower, but still good attack for their cost but at 30dmg instead of 40, which makes a big difference.
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Mando wrote:When I heard on the SHNN episode last week, they guys said that there was a focus on trying to counter Daala in the tournament (not meaning that all squads were built to counter her, but at least had her in mind) and even through this, 2 Daala squads made it to the top 8. I think Daala squads could be compared to Naboo Trooper Deahtshot squads, in that anyone can pick a Daala squad up and do well with it even with little experience, but the really skilled players dominate everyone. I'm glad the Weeks won with Mandalorians, but the fact that 2 Daala squads made it to the final 8 even with Yobuck and other counters running around proves that she might need a little tweaking. I like what she brings to the Imperials, and I like Prideful, but I think it is a major NPE when the opponent runs 12-15 5pt troopers all shooting at obscene attack for 40 dmg shots. It slows the game down a lot when there at 20+ activations with activation control thrown in there.you might get to 4 or 5 rounds at that rate. If prideful was limited to 10pt or higher pieces, she'd still be viable, still have good squads and the game would be quicker. You could still run a swarm of 5pt troopers also with her if Prideful was changed, its just they would be shooting at a lower, but still good attack for their cost but at 30dmg instead of 40, which makes a big difference. This! Someone gets it.
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Atmsalad decided to run Daala after the NZ tourney results when comments were made like "Daala requires no skill to play" or "just run Kybuck." He wanted to build a Daala squad that could beat Kybuck and her other counters but was not one of the traditional Daala builds with 12-18 troopers that we feel are bad for the game. Atmsalad has only been playing since late April but was able to go undefeated all the way until the final table. An amazing accomplishment.
I'm the "whipping boy" Atmsalad tested his Daala squad against. I was beat over and over again for a month. One week we played 3 or 4 games each day straight. I played against him with several popular squads and only beat him once because he made a simple play mistakes like the one he made against Weeks in the championship. One game after round 1 I just quit and felt like crying in frustration. It sucks when your not even able to compete with your opponent.
Together we built me a Bastila-Antarian Ranger Squad to take on the Daala crazed meta at Gen Con.
I didn't have a very high confidence going into GenCon after a month of being beaten royally.
However, I was able to get a 2pt win over a Kybuck with Embo, a 2pt win over a Talon with Embo, and a 3 pt win over Naboo trooper deathshots. My only losses were a 1 pt loss to Atmsalad's 2nd place Daala squad and a 1 pt loss to Countrydude's 3rd place Durge on speeder with Cad Bane BH squad. I got 10th place 3-2 with 9 points and the only reason I couldn't make top 8 was because my squad build makes it difficult to get three point wins in some match ups because I don't have great movement and I can't break formation.
I don't have the answer but I do hope something changes. Like I said to several people at GenCon, if I can't win this game with an 8 activation squad there's a problem.
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DarkDracul wrote:Atmsalad decided to run Daala after the NZ tourney results when comments were made like "Daala requires no skill to play" or "just run Kybuck." He wanted to build a Daala squad that could beat Kybuck and her other counters but was not one of the traditional Daala builds with 12-18 troopers that we feel are bad for the game. Atmsalad has only been playing since late April but was able to go undefeated all the way until the final table. An amazing accomplishment.
I'm the "whipping boy" Atmsalad tested his Daala squad against. I was beat over and over again for a month. One week we played 3 or 4 games each day straight. I played against him with several popular squads and only beat him once because he made a simple play mistakes like the one he made against Weeks in the championship. One game after round 1 I just quit and felt like crying in frustration. It sucks when your not even able to compete with your opponent.
Together we built me a Bastila-Antarian Ranger Squad to take on the Daala crazed meta at Gen Con.
I didn't have a very high confidence going into GenCon after a month of being beaten royally.
However, I was able to get a 2pt win over a Kybuck with Embo, a 2pt win over a Talon with Embo, and a 3 pt win over Naboo trooper deathshots. My only losses were a 1 pt loss to Atmsalad's 2nd place Daala squad and a 1 pt loss to Countrydude's 3rd place Durge on speeder with Cad Bane BH squad. I got 10th place 3-2 with 9 points and the only reason I couldn't make top 8 was because my squad build makes it difficult to get three point wins in some match ups because I don't have great movement and I can't break formation.
I don't have the answer but I do hope something changes. Like I said to several people at GenCon, if I can't win this game with an 8 activation squad there's a problem.
Thank you for this post.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:The game has any number of natural elements that can be an NPE for new players. I am not saying this is good, but comparatively my squad wasn't an NPE. I didn't abuse some game mechanic to out act and smash you. I never ever locked out my opponents out to win. I can't even shoot more than 7 times in a single round. I only used 3 diplomats and my guys could only ever hit for 30. What is an NPE about it? because how do people counter it? vehicles have a hard time due to their higher life, stealth, evade, can be super stealthed, can charge from across the map with dilpomats and stealth they may not even have legal targets. I know all of this is possible with other pieces, but not at the level this is, high attack values, decent damage, great survivability, great door control, high acts, great speed, etc. you lost to one squad and one squad only. and you beat it once. not even sure how you lost to the mando squad to be honest. I just give Weeks A TON of credit for being a great player because I am still scratching my head about your loss. Edit* by the looks of this poll she is still a massive npe for the majority of the community. like I said it is overwhelmingly pro change, and BAN still has the highest amount of votes. I am still holding my breathe that this will even out but it appears that change is what the community wants on a much higher scale then staying the way she is. I lose hard to Durge, luke and leia, naboo death shots, snow troops, nomb bombs weeks mandos if they play average and I don't play well.(I have to play well to win any of these. Also mace gowk is rough and so is skybuck. How mandos won was I over extended instead of just staying in gambit on Rhen Var. I made so many play mistakes, from moving the dips to where he could shoot them to moving my scouts within disruptive so they lost super stealth. Weeks capitalized on all of my mistakes and he himself only made maybe 1 the whole game. Props to weeks he did what no one else could do, but no one has ever beaten me playing this squad the first time.(also his squad is deceptively powerful) The fact is this squad has really rough matchups, but many tricks to counter them if it is your first time playing it. If Lou had played more with naboo that's a rough matchup regardless. If I had played Tim's luke and leia on speeder I try to have a good time while he kicks my butt. I have plenty of bad matchups, in fact I played most of them, but when it's anyone's first time playing this squad I have the advantage.(unless it is high act Durge or Luke and leia... That rails me) I bolded what is most important in your post to me. if they play average, and you don't play well... who cares if that's when/how they beat you, that is true for every squad at the top level of competition. So Mandos won because you made mistakes, that is not a reflection of the balance of daala that is a reflection of you making some mistakes and him no making mistakes. The fact is that you showed up with Daala to a very anti-daala tournament and almost own the whole thing. it amazes me that people still try to defend her. your games with those people should have been hard and you should have lost, they were counters to your squad, and yet you rose above and beat them anyways. I lose to all of those except weeks mandos. I lose to weeks mandos if you play average and I don't play we'll. the others I listed are almost auto loses. Sorry about that confusion.
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atmsalad wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:The game has any number of natural elements that can be an NPE for new players. I am not saying this is good, but comparatively my squad wasn't an NPE. I didn't abuse some game mechanic to out act and smash you. I never ever locked out my opponents out to win. I can't even shoot more than 7 times in a single round. I only used 3 diplomats and my guys could only ever hit for 30. What is an NPE about it? because how do people counter it? vehicles have a hard time due to their higher life, stealth, evade, can be super stealthed, can charge from across the map with dilpomats and stealth they may not even have legal targets. I know all of this is possible with other pieces, but not at the level this is, high attack values, decent damage, great survivability, great door control, high acts, great speed, etc. you lost to one squad and one squad only. and you beat it once. not even sure how you lost to the mando squad to be honest. I just give Weeks A TON of credit for being a great player because I am still scratching my head about your loss. Edit* by the looks of this poll she is still a massive npe for the majority of the community. like I said it is overwhelmingly pro change, and BAN still has the highest amount of votes. I am still holding my breathe that this will even out but it appears that change is what the community wants on a much higher scale then staying the way she is. I lose hard to Durge, luke and leia, naboo death shots, snow troops, nomb bombs weeks mandos if they play average and I don't play well.(I have to play well to win any of these. Also mace gowk is rough and so is skybuck. How mandos won was I over extended instead of just staying in gambit on Rhen Var. I made so many play mistakes, from moving the dips to where he could shoot them to moving my scouts within disruptive so they lost super stealth. Weeks capitalized on all of my mistakes and he himself only made maybe 1 the whole game. Props to weeks he did what no one else could do, but no one has ever beaten me playing this squad the first time.(also his squad is deceptively powerful) The fact is this squad has really rough matchups, but many tricks to counter them if it is your first time playing it. If Lou had played more with naboo that's a rough matchup regardless. If I had played Tim's luke and leia on speeder I try to have a good time while he kicks my butt. I have plenty of bad matchups, in fact I played most of them, but when it's anyone's first time playing this squad I have the advantage.(unless it is high act Durge or Luke and leia... That rails me) I bolded what is most important in your post to me. if they play average, and you don't play well... who cares if that's when/how they beat you, that is true for every squad at the top level of competition. So Mandos won because you made mistakes, that is not a reflection of the balance of daala that is a reflection of you making some mistakes and him no making mistakes. The fact is that you showed up with Daala to a very anti-daala tournament and almost own the whole thing. it amazes me that people still try to defend her. your games with those people should have been hard and you should have lost, they were counters to your squad, and yet you rose above and beat them anyways. I lose to all of those except weeks mandos. I lose to weeks mandos if you play average and I don't play we'll. the others I listed are almost auto loses. Sorry about that confusion. you say almost auto losses----- but you beat them so that statement is just wrong lol.
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Assumptions are being made based on my out come in Swiss. Stop it, you didn't play those games and you don't know how actually close they were. Also, my game against Jim was close and and country dude mad some "major" play mistakes. Other wise I don't think I can beat him.
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atmsalad wrote:Assumptions are being made based on my out come in Swiss. Stop it, you didn't play those games and you don't know how actually close they were. Also, my game against Jim was close and and country dude mad some "major" play mistakes. Other wise I don't think I can beat him. assumptions huh? these are facts. you won plain and simple. These were the COUNTERS you beat under almost no circumstances should you have beat them, but you did. The designers and some of the top players said, just run kybuck, yep that simple, they are the ones that said it was that easy to beat Daala. You proved them wrong, regardless of how close, or mistakes, or anything else. Fact is you beat them with Daala. It doesn't even matter anyways, I know how the people that are running this show are. they will never change daala significantly enough for it to matter because THEY don't believe she is a problem. They will continue on like none of it matters and will just not use her and pretend she doesn't exist. They do not care about the game outside of the 10-15 of them that design/playtest. This is their game not ours, and they will make that very clear again, when even though there is overwhelming support for a change to daala, it won't happen. just like mace wouldn't win gencon, and daala didn't have a chance to do it either. 
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atmsalad wrote:I lose hard to Durge, luke and leia, naboo death shots, snow troops, nomb bombs weeks mandos if they play average and I don't play well.(I have to play well to win any of these. Deaths_Baine wrote: your games with those people should have been hard and you should have lost, they were counters to your squad, and yet you rose above and beat them anyways. Also, the Dice gods were helping, the game winning move was when Etienne won initiative and used the repulsor sled to netgun Durge and Chris failed the save. That allowed Etienne to kill off Durge before he could ever get off a strafe. If Chris had only made that netgun save, Durge would have put a real hurting on Etienne's squad. He doesn't have that many troopers or that many acts. IF you can "break" his squad it does fall apart pretty quickly and you can get a 3pt win out of it. Unlike some trooper builds that can separate over a wide area and each do major damage.
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Idea:
New CE for Daala:
Trooper followers gain charging fire -10.
That's right, NEGATIVE 10.
So you either get all your damage boosts, or you get move over your speed (up to double speed) at a cost of negative 10 damage.
So usually the troopers will be shooting for 30, but 20 if they charge.
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Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:Assumptions are being made based on my out come in Swiss. Stop it, you didn't play those games and you don't know how actually close they were. Also, my game against Jim was close and and country dude mad some "major" play mistakes. Other wise I don't think I can beat him. assumptions huh? these are facts. you won plain and simple. These were the COUNTERS you beat under almost no circumstances should you have beat them, but you did. The designers and some of the top players said, just run kybuck, yep that simple, they are the ones that said it was that easy to beat Daala. You proved them wrong, regardless of how close, or mistakes, or anything else. Fact is you beat them with daala. Lol, sure, just that plain in simple.
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TimmerB123 wrote:Idea:
New CE for Daala:
Trooper followers gain charging fire -10.
That's right, NEGATIVE 10.
So you either get all your damage boosts, or you get move over your speed (up to double speed) at a cost of negative 10 damage.
So usually the troopers will be shooting for 30, but 20 if they charge. "After Daala ordered a siege of the Jedi Temple and entered a severe dispute with the acting Grand Master, Kenth Hamner, her actions caused her to be perceived more negatively by the public and viewed as a tyrant by the Jedi." Would be interested in seeing how -10 charging fire plays on her.
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What about just making her CE mobile attack?
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Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:Assumptions are being made based on my out come in Swiss. Stop it, you didn't play those games and you don't know how actually close they were. Also, my game against Jim was close and and country dude mad some "major" play mistakes. Other wise I don't think I can beat him. assumptions huh? these are facts. you won plain and simple. These were the COUNTERS you beat under almost no circumstances should you have beat them, but you did. The designers and some of the top players said, just run kybuck, yep that simple, they are the ones that said it was that easy to beat Daala. You proved them wrong, regardless of how close, or mistakes, or anything else. Fact is you beat them with Daala. Since when have we started advocating auto-losses? EVERY squad should have a chance against EVERY other squad, even counters. Even if that chance only exists if the opponent makes huge mistakes. Auto-losses are just as bad for the game as a dominating piece. No one wants to play a squad that has an auto-loss against another popular or strong squad, as that can ruin your chances in a tournament. Isn't that what this entire discussion about, people complaining about how Daala is an "auto-loss" for some squads? Then why are we advocating auto-losses for other squads, even if that squad is based around Admiral Daala? Aren't you just undermining your own argument with a big double-standard?
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SignerJ wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:Assumptions are being made based on my out come in Swiss. Stop it, you didn't play those games and you don't know how actually close they were. Also, my game against Jim was close and and country dude mad some "major" play mistakes. Other wise I don't think I can beat him. assumptions huh? these are facts. you won plain and simple. These were the COUNTERS you beat under almost no circumstances should you have beat them, but you did. The designers and some of the top players said, just run kybuck, yep that simple, they are the ones that said it was that easy to beat Daala. You proved them wrong, regardless of how close, or mistakes, or anything else. Fact is you beat them with Daala. Since when have we started advocating auto-losses? EVERY squad should have a chance against EVERY other squad, even counters. Even if that chance only exists if the opponent makes huge mistakes. Auto-losses are just as bad for the game as a dominating piece. No one wants to play a squad that has an auto-loss against another popular or strong squad, as that can ruin your chances in a tournament. Isn't that what this entire discussion about, people complaining about how Daala is an "auto-loss" for some squads? Then why are we advocating auto-losses for other squads, even if that squad is based around Admiral Daala? Aren't you just undermining your own argument with a big double-standard? (Stands on top of school desk) oh captain my captain. (Starts a slow clap)
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atmsalad wrote:SignerJ wrote:Deaths_Baine wrote:atmsalad wrote:Assumptions are being made based on my out come in Swiss. Stop it, you didn't play those games and you don't know how actually close they were. Also, my game against Jim was close and and country dude mad some "major" play mistakes. Other wise I don't think I can beat him. assumptions huh? these are facts. you won plain and simple. These were the COUNTERS you beat under almost no circumstances should you have beat them, but you did. The designers and some of the top players said, just run kybuck, yep that simple, they are the ones that said it was that easy to beat Daala. You proved them wrong, regardless of how close, or mistakes, or anything else. Fact is you beat them with Daala. Since when have we started advocating auto-losses? EVERY squad should have a chance against EVERY other squad, even counters. Even if that chance only exists if the opponent makes huge mistakes. Auto-losses are just as bad for the game as a dominating piece. No one wants to play a squad that has an auto-loss against another popular or strong squad, as that can ruin your chances in a tournament. Isn't that what this entire discussion about, people complaining about how Daala is an "auto-loss" for some squads? Then why are we advocating auto-losses for other squads, even if that squad is based around Admiral Daala? Aren't you just undermining your own argument with a big double-standard? (Stands on top of school desk) oh captain my captain. (Starts a slow clap) not at all, but the designers were the ones that said it was a loss not me. they all said Daala had no chance obviously they were wrong here. I am for the well rounded meta we had at the end of the last gencon season. not this crap fest of anti-daala or daala. With the thrown in mandos lol. the other problem is that Daala is an auto-loss for 90% of the squads out there, yet she has none. so yeah she is the majority of the problem with this meta. Seriously SignerJ if she gets to be an autoloss for so many squads, why shouldn't she have an autoloss? Edit* I have nothing left to say, the poll speaks for itself people want her changed, but like I said earlier it will never happen. this community will allow a hand-full of people to dictate how it is played and what types of squads are competitive to the point that the game will just die.
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Would you be happy if they made it so charging only worked on pieces 10 points or higher?
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