First off, I don't think it's broken.

Can Jedi compete in this meta? Yes, depending on matchups (as is the case with ANY squad).

Now don't mistake what I am saying. I do think that in the current meta that it is a bit harder for them. But not impossible.

People tend to overstate things. "Jedi are unplayable" is completely false.

Deri put it very well -


Melee is an innate disadvantage in this game. Always has been and always will be.

So the real question is how do we give them some advantages that help level the playing field.

I have always been a firm believer that a well built squad run well should at least have a chance against any other squad. Even if it's a bad matchup, with excellent play and a little luck you should at least make a good game out of it.

This is another area where people often overstate things. "That is an auto-loss!!!" is thrown around way too much. What is a true auto-loss? 22 clone troopers vs Emperor Palpatine sith Lord. That is a literal auto-loss since they literally cannot target Palp due to Execute Order 66 (Cannot be targeted by characters with Order 66).

And nobody would ever run that squad anyway.

Gamers tend to be extreme with their statements, using lots of absolutes when they aren't true.

Semantics aside - that general mentality propels notions that "Jedi can't compete", which isn't true. GenCon 2013 was the most balanced Meta we will ever have. An amazingly wide variety of squads where force users were integral to 7/8 of the GenCon top 8. Did many have other tools to use as well? OF COURSE!!! Although even then, it's fair to say that 1/2 of the top 8 were JEDI squads (Jedi meaning force using melee. Clearly Krayt/Revan are Sith Lords, not Jedi - but in the way people are using the definition, that squad is inarguably focused on melee force users)

Now some people want to narrow down the definition of what a "jedi squad" is. To me this is a ridiculous notion. "It can't be a true Jedi squad with movement breakers." What? That is ridiculously narrow minded. A HUGE part of this game has virtually always been movement breakers. The same people that claim movement breakers shouldn't be a part of a jedi squad frequently use R2 astromech, Ganner, Foul, etc.

Once again I'll go back to Deri's quote.



I would finish it by saying - not always.

And hopefully it never will be that one narrow squad type CAN always counter something. THAT would be very bad for the game.

To say you only want to play one very specific type of squad and then complain when it's not top dog is narrow minded. You will frequently lose if that is your stubborn way of thinking.

To me you don't truly enjoy minis if that's how you feel. Part of the glory of SWM is trying to figure out what the best is, regardless of what it is. Being able to play many different factions and many different squad types is admirable and impressive. That is what a true minis savant does.

If you just like close quarters smash ups - play TILE WARS. It's a lot of fun. Tons of melee focused squads do very well. Melees innate disadvantage is lessened greatly in close quarters.

As to the standard format - I think people need to get it out of their minds that the game should function like the movies. If it did - ALL Jedi would be overpowered and nobody would play anything but them.

Our game is more balanced than people realize. There is so many things that can compete. Who would have seen a Krayt with support only squad win a competitive regional this year?

As always - match-ups are key. There's always a little luck involved. But good play and clever squad building should always be paramount.


Here's what we don't want - the meta to become narrowed to the point of there being one squad type that you play or lose to. This is what happened with Daala/zygerrians pre errata in New Zealand. That is not fun for virtually anyone.

So pushing the envelope to an extreme in any one direction is a bad idea. Unforeseen synergies and strategies might prove too powerful and ultimately narrow the meta.

So - more to the point of this thread - how does melee compete?

Here's a few recent pieces that directly and indirectly help melee. (* on ones that are, or could be top tier)

Shamed One
Army of Light Trooper
*Klatooinian Black Sun Thug
*Mandalorian Demolitionist
Domain Carr Scout
*Killik Worker
*Ugor Droid Scrapper
*Dooje Brolo
Keshiri Warrior
Togruta Covenant Seer
*Domain Lah Warrior
*Gormak Bomb Disposal Expert
Imperial Missionary
Owen and Beru Lars
*R2-D2, Galactic Hero
*Freedon Nadd, Dark Force Spirit
*Givin Black Sun Slicer
Shamed Warrior
*Kubaz Spy
Shmi Skywalker
*Yun-Harla Fanatic
Wolfpack Trooper
*Yun-Ne'Shel Priest
*Kol Skywalker, Force Spirit
Young Anakin Skywalker
Wraith Squadron Grenadier
*Teebo, Ewok Sentry
Chief Chirpa
Coruscant Guard Clone Trooper
*Leia Organa Solo, Chief of State
*Domain Lah Subaltern
*Roan Lands
Sorcerer Acolyte
Clawdite Infiltrator
Falleen Black Sun Bodyguard
*Covenant Executor
Ewok With Catapult
Jedi Temple Guard
Army of Light Soldier
*Padawan Commander
Sith Pureblood
Admiral Gar Stazi
Duchess Satine Kryze
Galactic Alliance Officer
*Grievous's Bodyguard Droid
*Republic Commando Dev
*Republic Commando Jind
Elbee
Admiral Oteg
Alema Rar
Domain Choka Warrior
*Eminence Harrar
*Finn Galfridian
*Darth Nihl, Hand of Krayt
Elite Reborn
*Elite Republic Commando - Fixer
*Elite Republic Commando - Scorch
*Elite Republic Commando - Sev
*Sabine Wren
Barabel Jedi Knight
*Elite Republic Commando - Boss
*Green Jedi
Luuke Skywalker
*I-5YQ
*MagnaGuard Officer
*Minos, Yuuzhan Vong Warrior
*Mira of Nar Shaddaa
Shoaneb Culu, Jedi Knight
*Tsavong Lah, Warrior Elite
*Yu’shaa
*Zenoc Quah
*Kerra Holt
Wrenga "Jix" Jixton
*Apostle of the Undying Flame
*Arfan Ramos
*Arkanian Jedi General
Captain Shevu
Krayt's Sith Trooper
*Serra Keto
Supreme Chancellor Valorum
*Barriss Offee, Rogue Jedi
Commander Fox
Tott Doneeta
*Army of Light Jedi Lord
Lando Calrissian, New Republic Liaison
Nightsister Shaman
Streen
*Aves, Communications Officer
*Dread Master
Jocasta Nu
*Ludo Kressh
Tionne
Welk, Night Herald
*Adi Gallia
Dash Rendar, Rebel Informant
Ommin, Sith Sorceror
*Shado Vao, Jedi Master
*Master Tholme
*Wolf Sazen, Jedi Master
Aleema Keto, Sith Sorceress
*Dray
*Raynar Thul (Unuthul)
Commander Luke Skywalker
Gantoris
Obi-Wan Kenobi, Honorary Mandalorian
*Tesar Sebatyne
Lord Scourge
*Commander Sha'kel
Yaddle, Jedi Master
Yarael Poof
Darth Desolous
Darth Maul, Death Watch Overlord
Sith Meditation Sphere
*Valenthyne Farfalla
*Kam Solusar
Corporate Alliance Energy Pummel
Sifo-Dyas
General Rahm Kota
*The Inquisitor, Jedi Hunter
Oppo Rancisis
Pong Krell
*Darth Bane, Sith'ari
*Exar Kun, Dark Jedi
*Emperor Palpatine, Reborn

and that's only in the last three sets. (might have slipped in a few from vset 10 as well. . There are more in vset 10, but those names haven't been spoiled.)

Some of these may be counter-intuitive, but I think are valid. How are the republic commandos good for melee? Stealth (and usually super-stealth) are completely useless against melee. Anything that weakens non-melee, is generally good for melee. Evade, Flak-shiled, destabilizing attacks, damage reduction, etc. Also abilities that counter things that hurt melee more (defuse bomb, satchel charge, etc) are helpful in balance.

*and yes - we could quibble over this list all day long, but the specifics are not the point. The point is that there are many more things that help melee than people realize)

I'm not a fan of silver bullet counters. I think creativity is a better way to go. Lots of small steps are better than one big one. The worst is tons of big steps all in one set. We've seen how that can backfire.

We need more abilities that lessen damage from afar, as opposed to negating it entirely. Flak Shield is a great example.

We don't want the game to turn into flipping a pack of quarters and seeing who flips more heads. Damage lessening as opposed to full negation helps this cause.

All in all, it's not so much that melee hasn't gotten their great new figs, new abilities and boosts - they certainly have. It's just that there have been a few (whoops) overpowered non-melee pieces that really hurt melee.

We need to be more vigilant to not let those slip through the cracks.

Power Creep in inevitable in this game, but I believe the job of the designers is to try and keep it at a slow steady pace. Pushing figures (in any direction) to the max, especially doing it with many figures in a single set, amplifies and accelerates power creep, is bad for the game, and only narrows the meta in the long run.

http://www.bloomilk.com/Character/1259/the-jedi-exile--hero-of-onderon does that. She's a cool piece, I think, just not quite strong enough or with enough support to be quite there.

A Fringe piece giving that CE would solve the problem

Tricksy, tricksy Tim.

Dumb question from rundummy #21 What is this legends version thing?

I have some more ideas.

Idea 1:
Faction - Republic
Master Jedi Trainer (Alternately could be made on a cheap unique, ala Gui-Gon Jinn Jedi Trainer, - for example a cheap Aylla Secura could have this for the Rep)

Cost 25
90 HPs
18 Def
+10 Atk
20 Dmg

Melee, Double, Shien Style Mastery, Affinity NR, OR, Rebels.

Commander Effect:
Allied Force Users with melee attack gain Shien Style while within 6 of an ally with a force rating.

And the cool thing is you can make a mirror for Sith, Imp, and Seps, because they had Sith Shien, which was basically the same

Idea 2:
Whills Shaman Force Spirit
Old Republic (Affinity Republic)
Cost - 10
HPs -
Def -
Atk -
Dmg -

Special Abilities
Unique, Speed 2
Light Spirit Tutor - At the start of the skirmish choose one allied character with a force rating. That character gains Force Spirit 3. (which is force spirit giving out 3 FPs upon death.)

Force Powers:
1FPs

Commander Effect:
Allied characters with a force rating gain +4 to their speed.

"The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."
―Qui-Gon Jinn to Yoda[src]

The idea here is simple. A force ghost (so cheap enough to be tech, which Jedi squads generally lack in terms of options compared to shooters which have a plethora, and it's usually cheap, whereas Jedi tech is expensive). It's unique because there was reportedly only one shaman that could do this, and he taught Qui-Gon. It makes them fast. And it makes fast jedi faster. And yes, I already understand this would affect Yoda on Kybuck too, but that's not an issue.

Idea 3:
Jedi Master Ry-Gaul
Republic (Affinity Rebels)
Cost 23
HPs 100
Def 18
Atk +10
Dmg 30

Special Abilities:
Unique, Melee, Aturu Style, Double Attack

Force Powers
4 FPs
Force Cloak
Force Burst

Commander Effect:
Allied characters with a force rating gain +4 atk and +10 dmg. Followers with a force rating and melee attack gain Distraction.

+1

What if instead of healing you give a piece +hp? Like a character with Melee gains +50 hp at the start of the skirmish?

A 20 point fringe jolee Bindo piece that hands out force bond deflect and Jedi exiles ability to get a free use of it each turn.

Grievous, Duelist that hands out speed 8 and rolling cleave to bodyguard/magnaguards

A new Antares Draco, Imperial Knight Commander who hands out extra attack and Lightsaber throw to allied knights

Abeloth
This version:
http://www.bloomilk.com/Custom/18533/abeloth

Kas'im, Sith Combat Instructor
Handing out GMA to Sith followers with a force rating and with Lightsaber trainer

As well as +1 the bonus HP idea especially for Sith pieces.

I like Darth Maladi's Burst Lightning - since it doesn't replace attacks, she can do everything else and still use it. It'd be good to see more stuff like that.