|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 197
|
Don't worry! I'm SUREThat they won't ban him!
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 536
Location: Tracy, CA
|
Guys, I would really listen to dnemiller. If he thinks there is a good chance GOWK is going to be banned, trust him. Dean is in charge of DCI content. Based on the hints he's been dropping, I get the feeling GOWK will be banned come July 1.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 536
Location: Tracy, CA
|
hawaii50batman wrote:Quote:Look guys I read all of the Gowk is easy to beat stuff. But I am really having trouble seeing Gowk going down to Mando's. I love Mando's and love running them in comeptitive tourney's. Unless I missed something or there is a whole new Mando piece I don't know about you are not going to beat Gowk with Mandos unless you are playing a moron. My 10 year old son would not leave Gowk out in the open to take 16 shots nor any of his other pieces. So why would I? I vote you have missed something, and it is this: GOWK is probably the best piece in the game with melee attack, but most ranged squads [bold]will[/bold] tear him apart. To do damage and be effective, he must GET NEAR the opponents pieces. That means the shooters will be able to shoot him after his action.....repeatedly. In 150, where people seem to think he is strongest, he takes up more than a third of your army, so your opponent is likely to have more activations, and hence shoot GOWK apart pretty fast, regardless of their intelligence level. Anyone keeping GOWK at the back of the board turtled up in a 2x2 room to avoid this is not likely to win, either. Plus, if you DO use him that way, then your opponent doesn't need to worry about his 'unbeatable' defenses. Just wipe out his meager 95 points of support with your full 150 and lay in wait for him in the center. He is a GREAT piece for melee, but no matter how well you play him, or how poorly the opponent plays, a shooter-heavy squad almost always beats a melee-based one. (and yes, even if you pack Dash/Rex into a GOWK squad, it is STILL based around him, and hence Melee-Based) That is just the way the game is designed. In fact, the argument is just kind of silly. Is he good? Yes. Does he "break" the game? No. Should he be banned? Obviously not. Can we agree to just leave it at that instead of whining about every possible little thing? So obviously all these great players don't know jack about how to run or play against GOWK, huh? I find that hard to believe. You might not find this argument so silly if you actually tried to play a real DCI game against GOWK and his support. From where I'm standing, you sound like a naive, casual gamer not fully aware of GOWK's impact.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/23/2009
Posts: 116
|
Yeah, I've beaten GOWK before but it was anything but easy. I think we have a lot of decent players at my store and I can tell you that the worst of us have pulled out wins because of that one piece. The one time off the top of my head that I beat the GOWK team was because I had more door control and I killed off everyone but GOWK and got gambit. If I hadn't gotten gambit I may not have won.
I can totally see a reason to ban him, although I think this situation was avoidable. That's the part that makes me frustrated. They shouldn't have to ban a piece for being too powerful. But if they do, I can't say I'll be surprised.
|
|
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member
, Moderator
Joined: 8/24/2008
Posts: 812
Location: Parkville, MD
|
I hope he doesn't get banned. But even if he does, it's likely we may allow him to be played still at my venue. I personally like a good challenge, and the uphill fight against GOWK squads is fun for me.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 10/28/2008
Posts: 606
|
Well I still dont think he will be banned. I dont know what you all are talking about.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 538
Location: GC, Missouri
|
hawaii50batman wrote:Quote:Look guys I read all of the Gowk is easy to beat stuff. But I am really having trouble seeing Gowk going down to Mando's. I love Mando's and love running them in comeptitive tourney's. Unless I missed something or there is a whole new Mando piece I don't know about you are not going to beat Gowk with Mandos unless you are playing a moron. My 10 year old son would not leave Gowk out in the open to take 16 shots nor any of his other pieces. So why would I? I vote you have missed something, and it is this: GOWK is probably the best piece in the game with melee attack, but most ranged squads [bold]will[/bold] tear him apart. To do damage and be effective, he must GET NEAR the opponents pieces. That means the shooters will be able to shoot him after his action.....repeatedly. In 150, where people seem to think he is strongest, he takes up more than a third of your army, so your opponent is likely to have more activations, and hence shoot GOWK apart pretty fast, regardless of their intelligence level. Anyone keeping GOWK at the back of the board turtled up in a 2x2 room to avoid this is not likely to win, either. Plus, if you DO use him that way, then your opponent doesn't need to worry about his 'unbeatable' defenses. Just wipe out his meager 95 points of support with your full 150 and lay in wait for him in the center. He is a GREAT piece for melee, but no matter how well you play him, or how poorly the opponent plays, a shooter-heavy squad almost always beats a melee-based one. (and yes, even if you pack Dash/Rex into a GOWK squad, it is STILL based around him, and hence Melee-Based) That is just the way the game is designed. In fact, the argument is just kind of silly. Is he good? Yes. Does he "break" the game? No. Should he be banned? Obviously not. Can we agree to just leave it at that instead of whining about every possible little thing? You know you are right I miss just about everything that has to do with this game. I am generally locally and globally considered an idiot when comes to playing this game. That being said this idiot will gladly play your mando squad on vassal and i will play gowk. The reward for you is that when you beat me you can say you have triumphed over an idiot. But if you lose you will know a complete idiot has won. I am on vassal on most evenings I am not hard to find. you can respond here or pm me. It doesnt really matter to me
|
|
Rank: Bith Black Sun Vigo
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/20/2008
Posts: 20
|
dnemiller wrote:You know you are right I miss just about everything that has to do with this game. I am generally locally and globally considered an idiot when comes to playing this game. That being said this idiot will gladly play your mando squad on vassal and i will play gowk.
The reward for you is that when you beat me you can say you have triumphed over an idiot. But if you lose you will know a complete idiot has won.
I am on vassal on most evenings I am not hard to find. you can respond here or pm me. It doesnt really matter to me OKAY, ENOUGH. Some people need to stop thinking that someone disagreeing with you means they think you are an idiot. I didn't call you that, and I am certainly not suggesting it. What I did was state my opinion and back it up without trying to insult anyone. This moron/idiot stuff just makes everyone touchy, so cut it out. We are all intelligent people, or else we wouldn't be posting on Bloo Milk to begin with, and suggesting otherwise is just picking a useless fight. I am not challenging YOU, I am challenging the assertion that GOWK should be banned. CHILL. Also, you may be confusing me with the guy who said his mando squad beats GOWK squads frequently, because I don't even have a Mando team. I was not saying GOWK was easy to beat, in fact I called him the BEST MELEE PIECE IN THE GAME, but the idea that he is unbeatable and should be banned is an outright INSULT to our collective intelligence. He has limits, such as being vulnerable to shooters (and YES I know SSM affects ranged too, and YES I know mettle stacks, but he doesn't have INFINITE Force Points, and once they're gone a fifty-fifty chance of hitting isn't bad considering how much double/twin the game has in it right now. I have played against GOWK squads. I have beaten them, and more often been beaten by them. I have also been beaten by far better squads with other people in them. So what? It makes us BETTER. The players of SWM are SMART. We will adapt to whatever popular piece is seeing play at all the tourneys, and we will find a way to destroy it... THAT'S WHAT A META IS... But if you want to get mad at something..... HERE: New players are made better by playing GOWK, but experienced players are made SOFT. GOWK is a challenge to the ingenuity of the player base, and those who want to see him banned can come hide behind the coattails of those of us ready for a real challenge.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/2/2008
Posts: 538
Location: GC, Missouri
|
hawaii50batman wrote:
But if you want to get mad at something..... HERE:
New players are made better by playing GOWK, but experienced players are made SOFT. GOWK is a challenge to the ingenuity of the player base, and those who want to see him banned can come hide behind the coattails of those of us ready for a real challenge.
See there I am not real bright so you may have to draw me a picture. New players are not getting better because of Gowk he is giving out a false sense of security. New players are missing an entire learning curve that folks who have played for 5 years got. This is one of my problems with him. I want to play a game based on tactics not win a game based on my or my opponents ability to roll an 11,7 or 3. Does Gowk go down sure he does. But how many SA's and Force Powers actually are auto dmg... or require a save. But again since you think I am so soft Let's play!!!! Vassal any nite!!! You can give a soft player some pointers. You should probably go back iin this thread and re read Emperor Dragon's post I think he cover some points rather well.
|
|
Rank: Bith Black Sun Vigo
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/20/2008
Posts: 20
|
Thank you for actually responding just to the part of the post I put there to spur response.
I did not mean that they were made better PLAYERS, just more formidable opponents for the unwary. I think we agree fully that GOWK is a crutch, and slows the development of new players, while at the same time giving them a better chance to actually win. Not my point, but I agree.
Having played since rebel storm myself, I understand the frustration with his power, and see how he is changing the game. I simply wish he could be seen as what he really is: a challenge!
I don't want GOWK banned not because I think he's weak, (fine he's strong) but because the way to get those gamers who are new and relying too much on him (and the old hands who thought they had every facet of the game mastered, and are now threatened by the younger players suddenly being competitive) to evolve past him is to LEAVE him in. He FORCES us to be better, more creative. In that way, if I don't LIKE GOWK, I at least respect him, as a worthy challenge. One that I call upon all of us to ACCEPT, just as I do YOUR challenge. See you on Vassal.
And agreed, ED made some good points. I don't happen to agree with all of them, but let's leave that for later.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/9/2009
Posts: 158
|
I would rather not see him baned just cuz i dont like the idea of banning a fig but he needs to be limited a bit more i personaly think the idea of making mettle not stack would make him still pretty darn good but less godly and lower his impact on the meta a little bit
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 536
Location: Tracy, CA
|
Let us know how that little Vassal experience goes, Dean.
BTW hawaii50batman, more experienced players have been racking there brains on how to beat GOWK. They are the ones that see the problem here. Why? Because they have been extensive playtesting every facet of GOWK and any counters that surface. And no, he doesn't force us to be creative at all. If anything, he forces us to bring a rather predictable group of pieces (ie - direct damage, Lord Vader). As for the younger players getting more competitive, that's all an illusion. If they are using a crutch, it's not real. GOWK encourages sloppy play. Even if you make a big positioning mistake with him, odds are you will still win. Talk about discouraging for the other player.
|
|
Rank: Bith Black Sun Vigo
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/20/2008
Posts: 20
|
Agreed, but as Yames said, limiting mettle, or perhaps re-re-re-errataing SSM to just one type of attack would be a much better way of dealing with him than banning.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/26/2008
Posts: 2,115
Location: Watertown, SD
|
Limiting mettle does nothing. If mettle no longer stacks, the chance of Obi Wan being hit by an attack and spending 2 FP rises from 1.5% (.5 x .3 x .1) to 4.5% (.5 x .3 x .3).
|
|
Rank: Human Bodyguard
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/16/2009
Posts: 11
|
He's not the best melee piece in the game. He is the best piece in the game. The only piece that stops him his lord vader. I think melee is up to par with shooters now, since rieeken, wedge and all the super stealth out there. I kind of like the games evolution . Months ago, I wished that jedi and force users would become balanced with shooters. I present you GOWK. wow! I better watch what I wish for. besides GOWK, I must say the rest of the the games balance is right up my ally. 
|
|
Rank: Muun Tactics Broker
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/30/2008
Posts: 8
|
hawaii50batman wrote:I was not saying GOWK was easy to beat, in fact I called him the BEST MELEE PIECE IN THE GAME, but the idea that he is unbeatable and should be banned is an outright INSULT to our collective intelligence. He has limits, such as being vulnerable to shooters (and YES I know SSM affects ranged too, and YES I know mettle stacks, but he doesn't have INFINITE Force Points, and once they're gone a fifty-fifty chance of hitting isn't bad considering how much double/twin the game has in it right now. I played your "100% GOWK Death squad" last night, and annhialiated it. How much damage did you do against the Tank? Zero. How much damage did you do to the support? Zero. Just for reference 3x Whipid Tracker Nyna Calixte 2x Jawa Scout 1x Ugnaught 6x Imperial Dignitary Palps on Throne Will not beat even the most basic of GOWK squads. Why? 1. No door control. Doombot will have a field day with your squad 2. You didn't place Palps in Gambit to collect interest. 3. Your best shooter needs a 15 to hit GOWK in cover, 11 if you combine That's a 20-50% chance to hit. Good luck. 4. Like you saw, GOWK will simply cut a bloody swath through anything he sees. Especially when you crowd the swivel chair with everyone in your squad and GOWK can push-kill six enemies and leave everyone else at 10 hp. 5. I didn't even need GOWK. Your level of play was pedestrian at best, exactly what I would suspect from someone claiming to not ban GOWK. Need a crutch? 6. You keep claiming "I can remove GOWK's force points!!!". Yeah, you got my GOWK to zero once. I still had two saves between GOWk and damage. You want to do that more reliably? You need better shooters. 7. 30 points of dignitaries? What? Am I missing something? You need an 18 or better to hit GOWK, and they get picked off easily. You honestly believe your squad is worth a handful of turd? Well, I guess we have nine more games to go for me to prove to you that its not.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/25/2008
Posts: 536
Location: Tracy, CA
|
Crath_Lade wrote:hawaii50batman wrote:I was not saying GOWK was easy to beat, in fact I called him the BEST MELEE PIECE IN THE GAME, but the idea that he is unbeatable and should be banned is an outright INSULT to our collective intelligence. He has limits, such as being vulnerable to shooters (and YES I know SSM affects ranged too, and YES I know mettle stacks, but he doesn't have INFINITE Force Points, and once they're gone a fifty-fifty chance of hitting isn't bad considering how much double/twin the game has in it right now. I played your "100% GOWK Death squad" last night, and annhialiated it. How much damage did you do against the Tank? Zero. How much damage did you do to the support? Zero. Just for reference 3x Whipid Tracker Nyna Calixte 2x Jawa Scout 1x Ugnaught 6x Imperial Dignitary Palps on Throne Is that seriously what he played against you? Ouch. Sounds like he was relying on massive damage from the Whipids. Too bad it's a moot point when that massive damage attack misses or is negated by SSM. And 6 Dignitaries? I can't fathom using more than 3 in any semi-competitive game. Six is ludicrous. Of course the real travesty in that squad is the total lack of HPs. The only real beef is Palpatine and he isn't going anywhere. If he's not in Gambit, he can be avoided altogether.
|
|
Rank: Muun Tactics Broker
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/30/2008
Posts: 8
|
Tirade wrote:Is that seriously what he played against you? Ouch. Sounds like he was relying on massive damage from the Whipids. Too bad it's a moot point when that massive damage attack misses or is negated by SSM. And 6 Dignitaries? I can't fathom using more than 3 in any semi-competitive game. Six is ludicrous. Of course the real travesty in that squad is the total lack of HPs. The only real beef is Palpatine and he isn't going anywhere. If he's not in Gambit, he can be avoided altogether. And here was my garbage GOWK build I used against it. GOWK Dash Rex R2 Shieldbearer Ugnaught x2
|
|
Rank: Muun Tactics Broker
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/30/2008
Posts: 8
|
vanlanning wrote:Don't worry! I'm SUREThat they won't ban him! Don't worry! I'm SUREThat you're wrong.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 12/7/2008
Posts: 197
|
Crath_Lade wrote:vanlanning wrote:Don't worry! I'm SUREThat they won't ban him! Don't worry! I'm SUREThat you're wrong. heh heh... owned
|
|
|
Guest |