I wouldn't say Thrawn was the best leader. He had meglomaiac tendancies and he was a brillant military commander, but I don't think he's the best overall leader in SW.

When I think of a leader, I prefer to look at all sides of their leadership. Although Thrawn was a brilliant tactician and strategist, he was a megalomaniac as Eroschilles said and fought for the evil Galactic Empire. That is why my list mainly consists of Rebel and New Republic Leaders. They often fought daunting odds and yet still led their people to victory in the name of freedom. Within the factions, there are still questionable personas, such as the Bothans. Fey'Lya often did what was politically advantageous for himself rather than what was best for the people. To a lesser extent, Mon Mothma was worriesome when she made power grabs after Bail died. That probably had just as much to do with Bel Iblis as Mothma, though. But the lack of morality in Mandalorians, Sith, and Jedi causes me to avoid picking them a great leaders. They usually only do what is advantageous to themselves in the pursuit of conquest or peace. In my opinion, great leaders should stand up for what is right in addition to being effective.

Questions for New Zealanders: Why do you like John Key and dislike Helen Clark? She was Prime Minister for a long time, did that create corruption? Do you prefer the National Party or the Labour Party?

I would like to respect Pelleon, but he still served the Empire after it was formed. While he did not agree with Palpatine or the Empire, he still served him. Other officers defected, why did he not? I think that is a weakness of character on his part. I also do not think the treaty was signed out of necessity rather than anything noble. He also willingly allied himself with Daala. The Fel dynasty turned the Empire into little more than a Benevolent Dictatorship, so I am not particularly fond of Jagged. Although it is better than the Emppire ever was before, it is still not good.



Agreed.

Some of the comments about Imperial leaders really drive home the problem I have with the Imperial faction in Star Wars minis. Whatever one thinks about the Imperials (and I'm not a big fan of them, myself), there really are two different factions here. There are the Moffs and there is the Emperor. In the Legacy stuff (both books and the more distant future comics), it's clear that, while there is still bad blood between the Empire and the Alliance, it's just not the same thing as when a Sith is in charge. I would probably play the (post-Emperor) Imperial faction, where as I'm less inclined to play the (Emperor-driven) Imperial faction.

I don't think it practical to make yet another faction. But narratively, there are two distinct groups there, and it sometimes bugs me that they are lumped together.

It doesn't matter where you put Nyna, she seems to be a bit power hungry and self-serving.

And you don't defect to the other side just because you don't agree with the leader's policies. Some stay on and serve when they know there is moral corruption in the upper ranks. Palleon believes in a stronger central government over the form of government the Rebel Alliance preferred. And many of those serving the Empire didn't know Palpatine was a Sith. Many of the other officers defected not for more noble reasons, but because they were personally effected by the Empire's harshness.

Conscious abandonment and disagreement are two different things.

Of the above people, only one really defected from the Empire and that was Crix Madine. Han was drummed out of the service, Jan retired and then joined a rebellion, and the three politicians rebelled. The politicians saw themselves as only owing alleigance to the Republic, not any Empire. So they were not defecting.

Palleon joined up with Thrawn and Daala as they were means to an end. They were stron military commanders that could help the Empire rebuild itself, and they were not like all of the other warlords who were just trying to carve out small empires for themselves. The Empire is not evil by nature, it just had many corrupted and evil leaders. And there is such a thing as changing something from within, which he eventually managed to do.

Helen clark looks like a witch. although a guy at my school is in love with her *shudder* the thing was she was in office for ages yet nothing happend. I think people just wanted a change. I know i did.

The three politicians that ended up rebelling were against Palpatine when he was still the Surpreme Chancellor. They never had any true allegiance to the Emperor, to the Republic, yes, but never to Palpatine or his Empire. They didn't defect from the Empire, but were fighting to restore the Republic.

Some of those you listed as examples as corrupt/evil leaders of the Empire were not corrupt or evil. Far from exemplary leaders, yes, but Thrawn wasn't a tyrant. He didn't murder individuals on those planets he captured, and even the battles he fought, he fought with keeping causalties on both sides at a minimum. Maybe a meglomaniac, but hardly a tyrant. Teradoc was a Warlord, but he wasn't inherently evil either. Just because you rule a military governemnt over a sector of space, doesn't make you evil. Daala was trying to put the Empire back together and made the Empire a better place to live. Probably mentally unbalanced and far from an ideal leader, but she didn't make the Empire a worse place to live.

Isard was clearly a villian and inherently evil, as was Palpatine, but they were the defacto leaders of the Government he served. The only military person you listed as a defector from the Empire was Crix and that was because he witnessed personally atrocities being commited. I think you underestimate the degree of control Palpatine had on information being released in the Galaxy. And Palleon never committed atrocities or witnessed those under his command doing so, so when one claims they were just following orders and never did anything morally questionable then that does work. His main problem with his government was they way Darth Vader treated subordinates. His sphere of familarity is the military and to the vessel he was assigned. He was not familar with the policies or politics occuring throughout the galaxy under Palpatine's reign, and when he found out after Palpatine's death he probably hoped that things would change for the better. Which they did eventually after he put alot of effort into it. I'm not saying he is the best leader ever, just that he was one of the best in the Empire and not just because all the others were horrible people.

I think you are judging an entire form of government because of your political idealogy, not based on individuals within that government or its military. A stronger central government such as the Empire is not inherently evil or a dictatorship either. Every monarchy ever was not a dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise, and there are constitional monarchies to this day. Not everything is so black and white, even in Star Wars.

True, the Rebel Alliance didn't start 2BBY, but individual rebels were resisting Palpatine's rule since day one. Like the three Republic senators in question. They became more organized with Marak's help.

It is a false statement to say any authoritarian leader will be tyrannical. Thrawn lacking honour and being a tyrant are too two different things. I don't remember Teradoc ruling the space under his control with an iron fist, the only thing I remember about him was that he was an Imperial warlord fighting over bits from the empire with other warlords. Him aiding his ally doesn't prove he is a tyrant either. I agree Daala is mentally unstable, but mass murder and genocide are two different things technically.

I'm confused, you say that the moffs were given full range to do whatever they wanted, but you say that the Empire was an authoritarian dictatorship. Those ideas are not congruent. Also, there was an Imperial Senate for 20 years that had legislative authority. There was some separation of power.

Palleon did not know the Empire was committing atrocities. Propaganda was put out that it was the rebels who were committing those atrocities. And by your logic, anyone serving in a government's military when they know the government is doing something wrong should defect. If that were true, the U.S. would have lost most of its military half-way through the Iraq War. With shades of gray, there is no "evil by association". When Palleon gained control of the Empire, he was not sole ruler, nor were any of the Fels later. They had the moffs to contend with. There is more to the Empire than the emperor.

When it comes to monarchies, there has only been one country at a specific time that actually had absolute power with a monarchy. And that was the French Empire under Louis XIV. Western monarchies were set up under the feudal system where the monarchs powers were limited and relied upon their vassals to actually stay in line. The Roman Empire had its dictators, but they did not last for a very long time as the senators had some power and the bad emperors would die shortly.

Definition of Tyranny: arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

Resisting is not defection until they form or join a rival faction. Every authoritarian system has turned tyrannical in some way, it is inevitable when one person remains in power for as long as they like. They eventually put their own agenda ahead of what is best for the people of their territory. You first implied Thrawn was honorable, so I refuted. If you think executions for trivial reasons, slavery, and conquering through military force to further one's own power is not tyrannical, I do not think you understand the meaning of tyranny. Teradoc was like any other warlord. Like you said, He was carving out a piece of the Empire for himself. Just any other dictator that restricted political freedoms. Actually her mass murder was genocide. She specifically targetted the refugees.

Definition of Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.



Yes, actually, they are congruent. The overall actions of the Empire were orchestrated by the Emperor. And the Emperor's word was law. The Imperial Governors operated in the Outer Rim to control each individual sector for smaller scale government operations and were allowed to do whatever they wished within Imperial Law in those sectors simply because they were beyond the reach of the core. The Imperial Senate had no real power. Palpatine had the final word in any legislation regardless of what the senate voted. Also, remember what Tarkin said in A New Hope.

Governor Tarkin: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.
General Tagge: But that's impossible. How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
Governor Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.



The Empire tried to pin the destruction of Alderaan on the Rebels, but it was unsuccessful. It actually proved to swell Rebel ranks rather than anything else. No one really believed the Rebels did it, why would Pellaeon? There were also countless other atrocities that turned opinion against the Empire, but Pellaeon continued to serve faithfully. Insubordination was actually rather common among Imperial ranks as a result of the atrocities. Pellaeon was weak willed and hid behind his military duty to justify his inaction. I respect his personal beliefs, but not his actions or lack thereof. Every government makes mistakes sometimes, but when a government becomes tyrannical, every citizen should resist. Defection is reserved for when the government ceases to preform it duties. You obviously do not understand the U.S. military or the Iraq war if you seriously believe that. Evil by association is very much true. Someone that consciously supports a morally devoid government or organization without an extremely good reason is just as bad as those they support. The moffs were a joke. They never cooperated with each other much less actually form a competent resistence to either Pellaeon or the Fels. Technically, the leader of the Empire is not the Empire, as you said. Effectively, they are, simply because everybody else is often too incompetent to resist them. Roan is the only one I can think of that the moff council actually managed to resist. Even then, they needed the Sith.



Absolute rulers:

Louis XIV
Peter I
Catherine II
Alexander II
Most other Tzars
James I (unsuccessful)
Charles I (unsuccessful)
Frederick William

Feudalism did not always work. Sometimes the vassals were to incompetent to actually stand up against monarchs. This usually ended up with the monarchies gaining and losing absolute control on a fairly regular basis. Eventually, the people decided to either overthrow them or bind them to laws. Julius Caesar refused to give up the power granted to him as the dictator and siezed control of Rome. The Senate still functioned but was rather ineffective. Very similar to Palpatine's rise to power. Unfortunately, some Caesars caused great damage before their deaths. Such as Nero.