Shinja is not a president/CEO.

And Dean, I really enjoy hearing what you have to say, if that's any consolation.

Your question was valid, however the reasons for leaving Dean's (edited) post in place were spelled out in this forum. This thread was not the proper medium for your question, and leaving it in place would only invite such more questions, and more likely flaming.

Anyone who has a question about how forum moderation is being carried out should ask them via bloomail to one (or more) of the moderators.

Shoto - I will send you a BM, and will be happy to discuss this issue further with you if you wish - but OFF the forums. -swinefeld

Hi, I usually don't comment on the, what seems more and more often feuds on bloomilk. But when I noticed the V-sets stats were taken away, I was kinda upset.

I am like most of the users on bloomilk, I come here to read some Blogs, check new stats, and get ideas for squads. I also track my collection here and keep my own squads here.

Now if I understand things Dnemiller took or asked shinja to remove the V-set spoilers from bloomilk, and put them back on gamers where it originated from. Fine. After all he is in charge (if I understand) and is funding the progress of this fallen game, along with the other mods. I respect that, taking time and money out of their day for me and you, I talking to the people that free load to say. These V-sets cost nothing, for you (the average swm player) He isn't selling these cards for money, there free to print off online.

I saw the Exar Kun stats, AND also read the 6-7 pages of hate blogs that followed. I was pretty fed up with the whinning and complaining, questioning EVERY single motive that Billiv, Dnemiller and others had, thinking the worst first. When they did nothing, why question their greed? As if they are doing this for money? I believe they have something called passion. LEARN IT. Undstand where they come from, I bet they are pretty nervous about the whole thing, making minis and trying to preserve this game for the first time, they are learning as they go, like every human on earth, you don't first walk, you crawl. OF COARSE mistakes will happen. Think back to all of the miss prints Wizards had, and they got paid a ton of money to produce minis.

These guys are just starting out, they don't have employee's or funds, or even SUPPORT. (Pointing at the whiners and haters out there). But they haven't given up have they?

Believe me I would like the V-set to come back to bloomilk. Yes I have an account on Gamers, but this is my swm home.

So what is the root problem? How we settle this feud? Finding the root problem is important, so what are the contributing factors causing this problem? What factors those factors? Narrow it down until you have the soul problem, Knowing is half the battle. A lot has gone wrong when people strike out in blind rage, going off rumors or misunderstandings.

These are my two cents, take and do what ever you want with them. If your to rich and don't need them, then this message was probably meant for you.

We already had our Dinelle phase lol. I can definately see some of the similarities though.

FlyingArrow- Sound thinking.

Sithborg- Wow, you seem pretty even tempered to me.

greentime- Oh man, oh man I hope not.

@Flying Arrow - that's an idea that isn't new. It was proposed to Aaron by at least 3 different people last year. I hope he takes it seriously this time, but who knows. That's part of the problem on bloomilk, and it's a good solution. Someone has to oversee the mods themselves, and someone has to have accountability for the forums.

The suggestions made last year were for Joelker and/or Sithborg to take on that role.

As for Sithborg's old issue, to be fair about it, Scott wasn't very "even tempered" in the particular issue that cause his departure for a time. But as with anything in life, he worked on it, worked on the relationship, was invited back, and is now a moderator on Gamers again. But Scott has been a much better influence on the game in the longterm, and that more than anything else, repaired the relationship.

@Trappedslider - you were put on notice, because of the WotC history, and posters were concerned that you joined Gamers only to troll the forum. Since you did not do that, you have a clean record, and as you well know, are welcome to post like anyone else. And if TS (sorry Eric but I think you know it's true) can be welcomed onto Gamers and maintain an active account now for 2 years without issue, anyone can do so.

As for current issues, and the perceptions it has created. There are really two kinds of internet fights if you will. The first, are when a game related topic gets heated and people argue in good fun, but it gets out of hand. Those happen all the time for any game, and on just about any active forum. They are in many ways good for the game, as they get people talking, interested, and thinking. They also have a down side, and that's when people use them as a chance to grind axes, or when trolls see them as an opportunity to come out from under their bridge. As long as everyone keeps these in perspective, they are good for the game (doesn't happen often that way though unfortunately - as many people take things way to personally on the internet).

The second, and more annoying fights surround mod issues. Typically these revolve around someone with power on an internet site using it to start/continue fights. These are a major issue, and one of the things on the internet that annoy me the most. We've had these on WotC for a time, and that's where the past issues came from. We've had them here as well. Further, mods tend to have friends on a site where they post regularly, and they tend to defend their friends more often than act as a good mod. It's just human nature. These can be really nasty because it's so easy for a mod to make sure the evidence of their wrong doing is erased, making the rest of the forum members think that nothing is really wrong. Which brings me to my next point.

@SuperYodaMan - I don't know who you are, but it sure looks like you have no idea what was going on, what's happened in the past on here, and so on. And one of the most annoying realities of the combination of the internet, and the fallacy of the radical individual is that everyone thinks they are capable of making a judgment about everything, whether they know anything at all or not, and have the expectation that their opinion should be valued as highly as those in the know.

Heck, it often seems that the burden of proof is on those making "complaints", as if this were a court case and every other random poster was the judge... I've seen several people tell Dean, myself and others that our "issues" with Bloomilk are "overblown" and other things. You don't know half of what's happened, so your opinion is a waste of time, and what's worse, it's dangerous and borderline insulting. It actually creates as many problems as you think it's trying to solve. This isn't a court case, and we don't have to prove to you random poster that there is an issue to be solved. That's for the mods to determine, and if you've paid attention to the posting of the mods, they've admitted multiple times that there are and have been serious issues on this site that justify Dean's position. You have not been ordained judge, you have not seen nearly enough to make a realistic judgment, and you likely haven't been privy to any of the other information that isn't always present in plain sight. The worst part is, everyone of you who think this is only about recent events clearly have no idea what's going on, as it's about much more than one rogue mod.

So stop judging others for things that you know not. That would be the best way to move forward from this.

That bring me to this.
@SWMsTrader - As you mentioned, the root causes are the major issue. Flying Arrow hit one one of them, no accountability for mods. Others are no report button, no supermod to cover the mods only, inconsistent mod practices (one mod telling you how something works, and another doing something completely opposite), lack of mod communication to posters, and a general tolerance of trolling behavior. Further, a mod should never, and I mean never moderate a discussion in which he/she has been taking an active roll in. Even if that mod knows what to do, they should always pass it on to an uninvolved party. That's a basic practice that any forum should follow from day 1, and here we are 2+ years into this forum and it has yet to be put in place.

We have lots of people on Gamers that disagree, and get into blow up fights, just like any internet board. But they are handled very differently, and respectfully by the other mods. Heck, Dennis and I get into a fight about every 6 months over something, and we get over it.

The point of this long post, is that there are a myriad of issues with the bloomilk forums, most of which have been brought up long ago, and have not been addressed. This sends a message that the site cannot be trusted. And whether you personally think Dean shouldn't be worried about copyright infringement or not, is completely irrelevant - the fact of the matter is that he is worried about it. He has to know that he can trust the site, and those in charge. And in the 2+ years of this forum, he has seen little reason to trust it. A lot more than firing (or getting him to quit or whatever story Jak is telling) of one mod has to happen in order to regain that trust.

And finally (and mod's if this is over the line, feel free to remove it) - I want to address Jak's [claim] to the community. Not a single person from Gamers made any kind of threat or ultimatum about the V-sets to Aaron to remove Jak. I believe there were posters (not all Gamers regularly and not myself this time) that asked Shinja to remove him. However, the V-sets have never been used as leverage, and there was never a deal made about this. The two issues are only tangentially related. DarthJak is [misleading] you, the bloomilk community, and his doing so just furthers the point that Dean made the right decision about the future of working with the Bloomilk forums.

I hope that clears some of this up.

Edit - one more thing needs to be said. Asking for mods in the first place was something that many of the "Gamers" folks that some of you have derided pushed for on this site. Further, when you finally got them, Dean and I helped Kenred write the CoC. It might seem like Dean is the bad guy on here, but making such a judgment about him just based on his posts is a very lazy action. You need to realize he has tried repeatedly to help this site grow, and to improve. Do many of you know that when we started talking V-sets, Aaron was one of his first attempted contacts, and Aaron did not want anything to do with the project at that time. I know Aaron is "god" around here to some of you, but the facts of the matter are different. Aaron was invited to have a central roll in the V-set and did not take that opportunity, nor to my knowledge, even return a phone call.

Part of the reason Dean can seem salty here is that he only posts when he sees the community, Gamers, etc insulted. He does not post here in any other fashion, and hasn't for over a year (because for a long time posters were free to abuse him as the DCI rep as if he were not a real person without recourse - one of the reasons you finally got mods to begin with). So in short, he feels unwelcome, and does not regularly post at all. So if you are new, I understand your view, but know that it's extremely limited because of the circumstances, and not in any way reflective of Dean as a person.

I don't care about the "appearance" either. Making your judgments purely by appearance is a very poor way to live. Get to Gamers and see how Dean is there, or better yet, meet the guy in person, and see how much he has given to the game, the community, and even to this website.

mod edit: changed a bit of wording [see above] to be consistent with other edits made in this thread. - swinefeld

Theres a very easy solution to this mess, that has been created. You guys read, ok here it is.

I should be given some executive powers. Seriously think about this, you guys that have been working with each other for so long just bicker and argue. I'm not saying you don't have reasons to, because i hinestly don't know or truthfully care.

However SWM's is dieing, its obvious that not as many people are playing since WOTC stopped making them. The true fans though are still hanging in there though, and its honestly so lame for us to log on and read about your arguements you guys are having with eachother. I'm not saying its the guys on Gamer's fault or the guys at bloomilk, however it's truthfully all of the people you guys are trying to help that are suffering. I promise you that some people have given up on SWM's in last couple of days because of your little arguements.

I've never met any of you, however i can say that with out a doubt that bill, dean, and aaron are all fans of SWM's. You guys have helped out in numerous ways over the years, however when SWM's is barley hanging i`n there you guys decide to go seperate ways? As for the idea of getting a VP, it should deffinitly be someone new that does have this long drama with everyone. You should seriously get some new people to helpout. I was kidding when i said have me do it, but we should deffinitly have some new people it could be good for everyone having some new people that aren't partial to either group.

Think about it guys

lol,its okay i just wish that some times my name wouldn't get dragged into stuff that i have nothing to do with me...and honestly i just wish we could all move on from the past.

Technically, you and Dean assisted me in improving the FIRST CoC, the writing and reviewing has been done by me alone (fixing Eroscilles Rule of Thumb). I did take your suggestions into consideration from the first time as a mod that needed to help improve the way people post here. There are problems where a few people decide to go around the CoC, but constant improvements has been made to keep disruptive behaviors to a minimal (or none at all). It wasn't until Joruus_CBaoth pmed me and gave me second recommendations (the full write-up) on improving the CoC, and only then when I take some of his suggestions and improved it to where it is now (replacing every content from the first "Rule of Thumb" except for #3). I want you to know, I am capable in making my own decisions as moderator, and thanks to you and a community member, we have strengthened the Bloomilk community. As said, I cannot give you all the credit in helping me write the CoC because it is also the other who also helped as well without asking for anything. We had poor moderation in the past, but at the time you and Dean have strengthened my views on how moderation goes and I act on the issues within the forums responsibly and weeks later, few of our mods and I act as a team. So to the Bloomilk community members, Bill and Dean were the people that helped guide me as a moderator at the time when 1 member has gotten out of hand. And only then I don't like to see people criticize the 2 people who helped put Bloomilk forums in the right direction. I know V-sets are pulled, but keep in mind we work with Shinja to build a relation in trusting us in order for Gamers and Bloomilk to work together for this community.

Tread lightly here everyone. I'm going to review the thread again to address some issues, and would rather not have to lock/move it.

Edit: thread cleaned up a bit - posters will be notified via Bloomail - sf