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dotf changes: not errata, just opinion Options
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:06:08 AM
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billiv15 wrote:
Demosthenes wrote:
Wow, that's costly. I definitely understand the decision to go with the uniform background, then.


Wait, I forgot something else. The extra $500 was to go to a color uniform backing, not a different one for each card. To do color different backgrounds for every card was more like double the money or something (another $1500 I think it was). So yeah, you can see why we went that way. Sorry I misspoke a moment ago :)


AKA: It REALLY isn't going to happen.
swinefeld
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:10:30 AM
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@Flying Arrow - loved the way you stated that

@Demosthenes - the (painful) solution is to turn all your cards around so the stat side is facing the front. Ugh. I'm glad my binders are that way already.
Boris
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 4:53:39 AM
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Enjoyed reading all the comments, really great feedback! Thanks guys!

I won't sit here and try to defend every decision we made as a team as that would be ridiculous - everyone is going to have their own opinion about stuff and that is perfectly fine. BigGrin

I do want to hit a few highlights though:

1. Shimmra was not the last piece made. In fact, it was one of the first. I'm the one that wrote up the original stats. Could we have given him more Hit Points? Sure. Was it a good idea? Probably not. In playtesting (at least, in my playtesting), he dominated the field 4 out of 5 games. All by himself. It took my entire New Republic squad (which included the new Jaina and Jacen and Ben) just to bring him down. And then the rest of the squad pummeled me. Parry was all that saved me in the 2 games I won. And that was with 130 Hit Points. I shudder to think what he would have done with more Hit Points.

2. Advanced Battle Meditation. There are lots of reasons to have added in an attack bonus and one reason not to: ABM does not create a commander effect. This bonus would have stacked with everything from Atris to Nomi Sunrider to the eventual Jedi commander that will grant a static bonus to OR followers. It may not be in V-set 2 but I promise you it is 99.99% likely to happen down the road. This is still a luck based game and we want to keep it that way, as much as possible. The +10 damage bonus was actually an afterthought, because the real power of the ability is removing enemy commander effects. But we wanted to do something that reflected Bastila's ability to use the Force to rally her own people. This seemed the most effective way to do it without guaranteeing hit after hit for one decisive crushing round.

3. Jaina. Whew, did we go round and round on that one. Yeah she replaces Shado but he was never really tearing up the battlefield, unfortunately. It just gives us a reason to make Shado Vao, Jedi Master at some point. Flapper

Now go play some minis!! ThumpUp
Cordova
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 5:01:23 AM
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Boris wrote:


3. Jaina. Whew, did we go round and round on that one. Yeah she replaces Shado but he was never really tearing up the battlefield, unfortunately. It just gives us a reason to make Shado Vao, Jedi Master at some point. Flapper

Now go play some minis!! ThumpUp


Don't tempt me with something like that :P

But still, the fact that you can rock out customs for these means I can just use my custom Shado as Jaina so, tis all gravy.

(But now I expect a Shado JM...btw)
LoboStele
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 5:11:32 AM
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Something you guys aren't considering in the +4 Attack vs. +10 Damage category....The Klatooinian Enforcer isn't going to hit all that often, but when he does, it's often going to be a critical. So you're not including the double damage possibilities. :P

Seriously though, it's kind of silly to discuss boosting horrible pieces. Nobody is going to play those anyway. The +4 attack might help lower pieces like that, but people are still going to just use the better ones anyways. Doesn't matter what boosts you present for pieces, the Klatooian Enforcer is a horrible piece, and stuff like the Ugnaught Droid Destroyer or Duros Scout will always get played instead if you're looking for a 7 point filler piece. It's impossible to boost those lower pieces without also making the already good pieces even better. The only way around that is specifically targeted things like a CE that grants +4 to Klatooinians. :P I kinda doubt people want a CE wasted on something like that.

Boris and Weeks make awesome points as well though, that there are TONS of other ways to boost the attack rating of your pieces, and very few ways to boost the damage rating. This gives the OR a very unique ability.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 5:37:07 AM
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LoboStele wrote:
Something you guys aren't considering in the +4 Attack vs. +10 Damage category....The Klatooinian Enforcer isn't going to hit all that often, but when he does, it's often going to be a critical. So you're not including the double damage possibilities. :P


Actually I did, that's why my KE Vs Revan example had him doing 30 damage.

I've said my peace on the matter and my opinion remains unchanged, but let me get this off my chest.
Do I expect anything from it? No, though rest assured I will offer my criticism.
Do I appreciate the work that went into DOTF? Yes.

Do I think it could have been better? Most definitely.


Lastly, the card quality is TOP NOTCH!
Boris
Posted: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 5:44:05 AM
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Lord_Ball wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Something you guys aren't considering in the +4 Attack vs. +10 Damage category....The Klatooinian Enforcer isn't going to hit all that often, but when he does, it's often going to be a critical. So you're not including the double damage possibilities. :P


Actually I did, that's why my KE Vs Revan example had him doing 30 damage.

I've said my peace on the matter and my opinion remains unchanged, but let me get this off my chest.
Do I expect anything from it? No, though rest assured I will offer my criticism.
Do I appreciate the work that went into DOTF? Yes.

Do I think it could have been better? Most definitely.


Lastly, the card quality is TOP NOTCH!


I have no qualms with criticism as long as it is the way you do it, aimed at the topic and not the people. Thanks for sharing your feedback. Smile

I promise that as long as I am working on these sets, the community will get just as much attention as we did from Rob. I can't promise I or anyone else on the team will always agree with what's said, but I am always open to listening to different ideas.

And yes, there are things about this set that could have been done better. There is always room for improvement, no matter what the topic.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:15:48 AM
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Lord_Ball wrote:

Bastila - Advanced Battle Meditation - To me it should grant a bonus to Attack instead of Damage as all the damage in the world won't make the allies more effective if they can't hit the broadside of a barn. The other part of it is great at making the enemy less effective though.


The description of Battle meditation in SW lore
"Battle meditation was a Force ability which considerably boosted the morale, stamina, and overall battle prowess of an individual's allies while simultaneously reducing the opposition's combat-effectiveness by eroding their will to fight"

its a pretty open ended description of how allies are boosted. We could have chosen to boost dmg or attack as both really improve your battel prowess whether its by being mrore accurate or just dealing higher dmg. A 20dmg hitter of the same stats as a 10dmg hitter has a better battle prowess but the real reason we gave it dmg boost is because thats where the OR really suffer most and its where playtests showed it would do the most good.

CerousMutor
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 6:31:58 AM
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Cordova wrote:
I have only 3 gripes with DotF, and they are both minor and borderline ridiculous.

1) Jaina practically replaces Shado Vao...not totally, but almost, and I have an unhealthy attachment to the little Rutian...

2) There's not a non-unique Jedi Weaponmaster/Battlemaster for the NR. Altho the JediDemo is cool.

3) Sora Bulq is perhaps my fave mini stat wise but in my least fave faction...now I have to think of new squads etc...(Although, upon reflection, I feel that may have been half the point of DotF)

So, not really issues at all :D

Great work guys!


Great points! lol
Greybird
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 8:09:43 AM
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CerousMutor wrote:
Cordova wrote:
I have only 3 gripes with DotF, and they are both minor and borderline ridiculous.

1) Jaina practically replaces Shado Vao...not totally, but almost, and I have an unhealthy attachment to the little Rutian...

2) There's not a non-unique Jedi Weaponmaster/Battlemaster for the NR. Altho the JediDemo is cool.

3) Sora Bulq is perhaps my fave mini stat wise but in my least fave faction...now I have to think of new squads etc...(Although, upon reflection, I feel that may have been half the point of DotF)

So, not really issues at all :D

Great work guys!


Great points! lol


BigGrin Well, since Cordova did it first, I have to make my own borderline gripe, but more of a question really for those in the know as to how new characters will be chosen:

The recommended figure for Imperial Knight Master is the one whose look is based entirely upon the character Ganner Krieg from the Legacy comics. Does this mean that we are far less likely now to ever see a V-set card specifically for Ganner because his miniature has already been, um, set aside for the Imperial Knight Master?

Personally I still very much hope to see a V-Set card for Ganner and Sigel Dare too (the female Imperial Knight).
Jester007
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 9:37:31 AM
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I am just really glad that Revan and Jaina got a face-lift. Those two pieces alone were enough to stop the itch in the back of my head as to when they were gonna get revamped. Everything else is icing on the cake for me. Well done indeed!!

The only thing I have to say is I was a little confused when I saw that Revan doesn't have Dark Armor; but then I realized that in most cases he won't need it. With his CE, he shouldn't be exposed too much. If he should get into a tough spot, his 22 DEF and Lightsaber Defense helps out. So after taking a good look at his card and the possibilities of him, I came to accept and like what I saw.

Sincerely,
Jester007
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 9:54:54 AM
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When I saw Advanced Battle Meditation I didn't think of attack as being missing. I, after reading this thread, for a bit agreed that attack might have been appropriate because Carth still sucks, but we need to remember that's Carth's fault (well, wotc's fault) and not the abilities in the v-set.
For minis like the Klatoonian and Carth, their hope is in getting new cards, not being boosted by another figure.
The top 4 requested Minis for the V-set were Jaina, Carth, Ben Skywalker, and Revan, so if I were a betting man, I'd bet on Carth for V-2, since 3 of those 4 were in V-1.
Even if ABM is not too accurate in-uni, Bastila with it is still redonk. If she were 50 points I don't think too many would scream "overcosted." Revanchist is sick too. I don't know if OR got the biggest boost, but I think the boost-per-mini total for them is the highest of the set.

Plus I'm loving Wedge's speeder with Demo Charge. I could roll 1's for the rest of the game and still have a great time if I pull off that combo.
dnemiller
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:03:49 AM
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Well I would say that Advanced Battle Meditation is closer to Cannon than the original.

I think how ABM works is covered well in the first Darth Bane book. The ability in the book was described as making your allies work better together represented in the extra damage. The ability in the book also said the enemy becomes sluggish and on the verge of retreat. This represented in the inability to be effected by Commander Effects. Nothing is coordinated any longer.

I think Advanced Battle Meditation is spot on. If you recall in Cannon Battle Meditation was considered something that could turn the tide of an entire war. Not a battle only. So I think the designers were closer to the mark than Wotc ever was.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:09:56 AM
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dnemiller wrote:
Well I would say that Advanced Battle Meditation is closer to Cannon than the original.

I think how ABM works is covered well in the first Darth Bane book. The ability in the book was described as making your allies work better together represented in the extra damage. The ability in the book also said the enemy becomes sluggish and on the verge of retreat. This represented in the inability to be effected by Commander Effects. Nothing is coordinated any longer.

I think Advanced Battle Meditation is spot on. If you recall in Cannon Battle Meditation was considered something that could turn the tide of an entire war. Not a battle only. So I think the designers were closer to the mark than Wotc ever was.


Yeah it would be hard for anyone to argue that there was much point to WotC's battle meditation. This is at least useful (in fact very useful), and whoever had the point about Att bonuses stacking with CE's settled the issue right there.

The only time I recall battle meditation being used was against my sep Squad, and my opponent got annoyed once I explained my Droids could still combine fire (since it was the same Homing Spider squad I liked at the time). He never brought bastila again, but I think now he would reconsider.
LoboStele
Posted: Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:38:49 PM
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Greybird wrote:
BigGrin Well, since Cordova did it first, I have to make my own borderline gripe, but more of a question really for those in the know as to how new characters will be chosen:

The recommended figure for Imperial Knight Master is the one whose look is based entirely upon the character Ganner Krieg from the Legacy comics. Does this mean that we are far less likely now to ever see a V-set card specifically for Ganner because his miniature has already been, um, set aside for the Imperial Knight Master?

Personally I still very much hope to see a V-Set card for Ganner and Sigel Dare too (the female Imperial Knight).


Well, I wouldn't rule anything out. Master Sinde is another Knight that has been requested a few different times. So I'm sure we can work around it all somehow. I don't know if an 'Imperial Knight sub-faction' will be all that high on the list of things to tackle, but we'll see.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Sunday, December 19, 2010 9:49:19 PM
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AdmiralMotti89 wrote:
whoever had the point about Att bonuses stacking with CE's settled the issue right there.
Unfortunately that now means the bonus damage stacks with CEs (I'm looking at you Non-Unique Senator), which to me is a far more slippery slope than attack bonuses.
AdmiralMotti89
Posted: Monday, December 20, 2010 12:28:30 AM
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I think the only piece I'd be worried about that with is Atton, and if you leave your 100+ HP figs out for him to blast he's gonna do that with or without the +10-20 Damage.
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, December 20, 2010 12:37:02 AM
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Wookiee Elite Warrior runs 12 and hits for 60.

Battlemaster assaults for 40 (x2).

I like it. Sneaky
swinefeld
Posted: Monday, December 20, 2010 12:38:25 AM
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NVM - I need more coffee...Razz
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