true dat! also if v=vong, and j= force users then: V > J

yet Z > V were Z = great melee piece

I for one would love to play you on vassal, echo, but unfortunately I do not have the internet at home, and only get on here during work lol.
Anyways, I think some poeple believe that we are trying to say that Mace Windu is an auto-win, this is not the case, GOWK is not an auto win, but he is pretty dang difficult to kill, so much so that they had to change him. Of course you can make a squad that can easily defeta mace windu, if you know you are going to play mace windu, but in all honesty how good are the squads tailor made to beat Mace going to do against everything else? The vong are a great counter to Mace, but they are a good counter to almost all force users, so that point is pretty much a given. You have to admit that when compared to other beats around his point cost is BY FAR better then all of them, I would rather have mace windu on my side then any vader or mara jade.

He did not say that there was an unbeatable squad, in fact in his post Deaths_Baine said that Mace was not an auto win and did mention several ways for Mace to lose. If you mean "you" as a community then, speaking for myself and myself only, I don't think Mace is overpowered but I also don't think he is just another average piece. He is defiantly something special and he has a lot of damage potential, though lacks survival ability.

I would say in my opinion that Mace is fine how he is though it would concern me if newer figures are equally as "aggressively" costed. Just for the simple reason that if a lot of new pieces are similarly costed that some older pieces, that have a higher cost, may not see the light of day.

first to answer bill's comment:That's debatable as well. Is he better than Lord Vader at 71? I'd say he's pretty comparable, but the support for Vader favors Vader.
What support does vader have that is better then the support Mace has? both have full board swap, vader can get oppurtunist, mace can get momentum, Mace has tow cable, Mace has Gowk/Grandmaster Yoda to make his defense outrageous.

Now to Sashlon, of course you can get 120 damage out of dash rendar, if he has momentum and all that other stuff, all Mace has to do is roll. And these situations you talk of where cad bane can do 120 damage, yeah if he has oppurtunist so you would have to use a commander that gives him that which i believe the cheapest is like 21? not sure, but anyways his cost to do 120 is actually around 70 something, and requires the character you are targeting to be activated. and Mara Jade yeah she is really really good, I love her, but once again to do her 120 damage you have to have cunning attack and you have to be able to use lightsaber assualt, which with pieces such as mace and thon, that have ways to cancel that I doubt she will be doing it, especially to Mace Windu. You can easily make a mace windu/yoda on kybuck squad with 15 activations, which is pretty standard for a Kybuck squad, and if you look at todays meta, yodabuck does pretty dang good. Talking about that I highly doubt the standard yobuck squad would beat a mace windu yoda on kycuck squad.

The big ones are tempo control and Master Tactician. A high-activation B&B squad with Ozzel will basically just out-activate the opponent, swap Vader in, do a 160 damage attack, win init, swap out. Start it again next round. Mace has no way to do his nuke as easily (or, more importantly, as safely) as Vader does. Vader also has access to Ysalimiri and a great mid-cost mass-killing shooter (Arica).

Assuming you mean Mace/Yobuck/Panaka/Mas/R2 and filler, you end up with an almost entirely melee squad. And I think one of the main lessons of this thread is to run a balanced squad, not an entirely melee one - otherwise you'll probably get nerfed by mouse walls, by diplomat walls, and by Vong.

Funny that everyone keeps talking about how you need shooters and all that stuff and how an all melee squad does nothing... here is my answer to you: GENCON CHAMPION

My squad name was Bastila's Battlemasters:

Bastila Shan, Jedi Master
Jedi Battlemasters x3
Jedi Seer
Lobot
Old Republic Senator
R7 Astromech Droid
Mouse Droids x2
Ugnaught Demolitionist

Map: Theed
Reinforcements: Human BG w/ either 2 uggies and 1 mouse or 1 uggy and 2 mice.

Sincerely,
Jester007


show me where the shooter was that led him to victory........................ ok then, thank you.

One key thing is that the Battlemasters have Force Leap. That means the diplomat/mouse walls don't work against them. The Seer (with evade) and Battlemaster swarm is more survivable against a swarm of shooters than Mace is, even if they don't pump out damage as quickly.

Fair enough, I suppose. Melee has gotten much stronger lately, both because of pieces that have been made and changes to the map list. TheHutts also makes a very good point that Ian's OR squad in particular overcomes a lot of the disadvantages that most melee squads have. Republic just isn't capable of doing that.



I can see him finishing 1st or 2nd in a regional, but I strongly disagree that that makes something tier 1. There have been plenty of tier 2 squads that win regionals; it greatly depends on the regional in question. Mace has a good chance at getting 1st or 2nd at one of the smaller regionals. Remember, though, that Chewbacca, Fearless Scout got 1st at a regional before. Is that a tier 1 piece, or was that a result of other things (player skill, luck, matchups, small regional, knowing what other squads will be at the event, etc.)?

Challenge accepted:

Darth Caedus (60): Always had issues. Too Force intensive in order to make him as effective as he could be.
Vader, SL (60): Rebel Storm
Jedi Master Kit Fisto (60): Always been subpar, especially to his MOTF version. Still, something can be said about Double Twin vs Triple and Flurry.
Leviathan (60): Yes, can be rough. Has to be use strategically used, though. MR 3 to hit while staying away from Mace's Triple. Killing scrubs to make it tougher on non-crits to hit. A couple CE's to really hammer to damage in.
Warmaster Nos Choka (60): Needs 2 crits or multiple fails of save 6. And with the Vong's support, Mace will die.
Cade Skywalker (61): Not the most effective, and can weaken Mace from Range. If Mace doesn't kill him, the barrage will likely finish him off.
Darth Sidious, DLOTS (61): Not touching this one...
Ulic Qel-Droma (61): Sort of lost his luster, but his stats are still amazing. A couple proper CE's could make it a fight.
Boba, BH (62): Shooter vs melee. Not too confident, but Boba has always had damage issues.
Darth Revan, SL (62): Now, things get interesting. Will be a brutal fight. Revan's hit and run range is what will kill Mace, especially with the proper support. Very, very comparable.
Palpatine, SL (62): More of a tech piece than actual beatstick. Will keep his Force rerolls down to one, since you don't risk the Betrayal. Swap is where he will get the advantage squadwise.
Darth Plaguis (63): Actually, a good match up. Parry slows down his damage, Corruption will drain his Force Points.
Grievious, Scourge (63): Never the greatest beatstick to begin with, comes down to dice.
Mace Windu (63): Time has left him behind. Really shouldn't be used as a measuring stick.
Warmaster Tsavong Lah (63): Not nearly as overwhelming as Nos Choka, but still, slows the damage and the boosts far outpaces Maces.
Master Thon (64): Has awesome support capabilities. Almost as brutal as Mace without crits. The one/two combo of Thon and passgenger may be too much.
Naga Sadow (64): Another luck based piece. Yet, is awesome damage is dependent on a roll of greater than 16, and is considered practically automatic because of it. Don't start me on Sith Sorcery, his real strength.
Yoda, JM (64): outdated long ago, if fun.
Anakin and Padme on Reek (64): really more of a fun piece, but much more brutal on swarms.
Vader, Agent of Evil (65): Not a beatstick, more of a commander role.
Mace, JM (65): Yeah, outclassed by Clone Strike version.
Master Windu (65): Really, so crappy, that's why they made this version.
Master Kavar (65): Up for debate, as his utility is still debatable at this point. Still, his tricks are neat, and can ruin Mace's day.
Obi, Jedi General (66): A commander, not a beatstick.
Mandalore the Indomitable (68): More of a shooter and commander, than beatstick. CE is where is strength is.
Sion (69): Not too great, and Absorb does ruin his Eternal Hatred, which would've made him a thorn in Mace's side.
LODA (70): A bit outdated. In fact, he is where I see a lot of Mace's design. Very similar, though Mace is more offensive. And since he is a bit outdated, I can see a point cost discount being fine for a similar fig.

Out of the 27 figs I listed, I would count about 6 or 8 as any I would consider using for an actual tournament. And Mace can compare to those figs, imo. Really, Mace is about the damage, wherease others in the point range have less damage, but far, far more powerful tricks. Thing about damage, there is a lot of damage prevention.