I think you were a designer on the set, so you'll know the intent, but it feels like, with where the game is right now, with a lot of different squads able to compete, we don't need a squad that shakes up the meta to this extent and makes it hard for a bunch of squads to compete, and where the main counters are mass killers and/or high activations. Feels like the opposite direction from where we've been going, where things have been opening up and more and more squads are being added to the good squad list. There have been other big changes from the v-sets - Bastila, Mace, and Poggle all made a splash in New Zealand - but this is the first one that's got us thinking that you need to either play Daala or play a counter.


As a more general question, is there evidence that Zygerrians are a problem outside Daala squads? I've seen them used with Drones, but it's a bit of a decision to give up four Drones for a Zygerrian. And I imagine they're good with Naboo Troopers. But I think Raxus Prime Troopers with wall climber and lots of potential damage output are by far the most abusive? Daala could just have Rival with Zygerrians if we didn't want to alter two pieces?

My question earlier was buried in another post but I think it deserves attention:

What's a reasonable (i.e. Tier 1 but not game breaking) attack/damage for a swarm of 10-15 troopers who cost 4 or 5 points each?

Does your answer change if they have access to Twin? If they have Charging Fire? Charging Fire+Wall Climber?

Your questions are good ones. Here are my suggestions (also similar to Deri's and Tim's):

1. Admiral Daala:
-CE gives Charging Fire (no damage bonus)
-drop Rapport entirely

2. Snowtrooper Officer:
-Rapport 1 (not 2)

3. Slave Driver:
-only affects living non-unique fringe
-an affected piece can move its speed (not double its speed)

The Snowtroopers now cost 6pts (not 5 or 4). They're still fragile with 20hp and lowish defense, and in order to get to the +20/40dmg mark they need to have Squad Assault/Firepower working for them, which is often difficult to do, and will often expose a good portion of their squad to return fire. Most of the time they'll be +16 for 30, which isn't outrageous when compared to +9/30dmg twin deathshots with Naboo Troopers (4 attacks at +9 will often land at least 1 hit). Generally speaking, if someone can bring a Czerka and use it effectively more than a few times, they've earned my respect, since that tactic is so fragile and so placement-sensitive. So if the Snowtroopers are getting Twin then I'll assume that it's often going to be because of good play, and it probably won't happen more than once; I could be wrong on this, though.

And the Raxus option is still capped out at +13 attack, but now those pieces have lost their greatest asset because of the Slave Driver errata.

This is such a difficult question to answer. I think you can get Battle Droids bonuses way up there, but there are no movement breakers that doesn't kill them.

Of course it changes things if they have access to twin, have charging fire, and wall climber.

Ideally bonuses stacking have a diminishing return. In other words, if you add another commander, the benefit is not worth the cost. (Is +20 attack vs +16 attack really worth losing 4 troopers for example) But the combo of cheap commanders that all stack and SUPER cheap grunts to benefit from them all is an issue.

With your specific example I would say 30 damage max and like a +9/10 attack seems reasonable for that cheap of a piece that you can fit that many of. But it's all arbitrary.

IG-86 swarms were a big issue at one point. Their INSANE high attack with twin and access to Pawn of the darkside made for some nasty matches. But what held them back was lack of a better movement breaker. Only ONE could move more than 6 and attack in a turn, and that one took damage to do it (not to mention the piece providing that movement breaker is a 36 pt unique, and has to spend force to do it).

I still stand by that it is the ridiculous movement breaking that the Zygerrians provide that makes these squads truly broken.

why do we need to consider errata on 3 pieces, when the big problem is just Daala?

this may be obvious, but Bastilla would hamper/cripple most Daala squads

Just brainstorming, but what if Daala's Prideful only gave benefit to Imperial Commanders?

My .5 cents.

I'd prefer to see Daala keep her Rapport. If not now, at some point it may help builds with her that aren't focused solely on trooper swarms. (gasp!)

Drop the Snow Officer's Rapport by 1.

I would support neutering the Zygerrian to living Fringe and only move them normal speed. On an 8pt follower that can also be boosted and make unpreventable attacks, this is still pretty useful and would pose less potential design concerns down the road.

I don't even think we have to touch the Snowtrooper Officer if we make the other proposed changes.

Prideful allows you to change who can benefit, so it wouldn't be a rules issue. But you're right - if Prideful didn't boost them, then Daala+Thrawn is probably worthwhile. Prideful for commanders only wouldn't be much of an incentive.

I asked it twice because the cost:power ratio seems to me to be the biggest issue. (The second time I asked, it was in the context of wondering whether it was enough to just remove 1 point of Rapport.) In my games, the deep strike has been nice but not essential. With a dozen or more troopers who can all charge 12 and shoot, you cover most of the board anyway. Getting to a key tech piece by using a Zygerrian is nice, but I haven't perceived it as being the primary strength of the squads I've played. The primary strength is just the sheer damage output. And the fact that generally when approaching to engage, Charging is sufficient to usually be able to guarantee that the troopers get to attack first. Since they're 4 points each, I don't worry about protecting them after they've taken a shot. If they each get off one good attack that's plenty. I said 80dmg because while the Czerka is weak, it helps a lot when the opponent has to risk a potential 60dmg or 80dmg AoO to reach her. Generally, I'd be happy to tag something with 60dmg in exchange for the Czerka anyway. Momaw or Flight could potentially get her more easily, but Charging Fire is generally enough to intercept anything that's coming close. (Although a driven Raxus Prime could certainly get her.)

The Zygerrian probably should be switched to Fringe only and speed instead of double-speed, but from my experience i don't think it's the primary problem.