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Baze Malbus Options
donnyrides
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:11:39 AM
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For 25 points, this piece is actually pretty fantastic. Sometimes, you have to close your eyes to a character’s name and just think about the stats and ability list and how to use/exploit them. Baze joins an elite group of 11 characters that are 25 points or less with 100 HP or more. Of these 11, only 2 or 3 are within reason of using and maybe 1 could be used at a competitive level. Baze with his Force Attuned Armor is point for point, the most beefy character in rebels and possibly in the entire game. For 14 points, Baze gains Evade making him even more of a tank. Versatile Leia gets him to 20 damage which quickly solves the 10 damage problem. I was excited for some massive 40 or 50 point piece, but this piece by the costing methods I use, is a huge bargain and even without other Rogue One characters, should be a lead meat shield for rebels. The design was built with so many negative scoring or null scoring values that it was able to pack a punch and keep costs down. I cost it between 33 and 35. 25 points is a steal!!
DarkDracul
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:15:13 AM
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btw, Tim, when are we meeting up @LaBagh Woods?
I have my costume...
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:16:33 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
designers have long been designing for function over theme for a long long time.


It's true, and thank goodness.

We do try and have great Star Wars theme and accurate flavor, but all that means nothing if the function is bad. Ideally there is both, but impossible to achieve all the time.

This is a strategy miniatures game. Between flavor and function, function is far far more important.


If you want pure flavor with little regard to function, go make your costume and have a roll playing circle jerk in the woods with your friends.

Sincerely, nothing wrong with that, and you are free to enjoy that.


This forum however, is for Star Wars Miniatures. A strategy game.


Virtually all of us are Star Wars fans. We will push our metephorical glasses up our noses and argue minute details of accuracy all day long (myself included).



But when flavor overrrides the mechanical in-game function - then it ceases to be Star Wars Miniatures. It would cease to be a strategy game.





ahhhhh I love when people show their ignorance.

I never said pure flavor...ever...

and yes it is a strategy game based on things that exist in some form or fashion, be it books, movies, comics, etc. but they have to be based on something. you can't just say, hey we want a piece that does this, and hey no one has made this character, well hell yeah, lets make that guy do all this stuff even though it makes no sense whatsoever.

I am just asking that pieces, kind of, sort of...maybe... resemble the pieces they represent, because a furious assaulting single shot blasting, low attacking, armor wearing, short is 5.9 short?, heavy guy, that never misses a shot kills everything in one shot and wields this bad boy:

Baze Malbus' MWC-35c Repeating Cannon

Baze Malbus has abandoned the ancient ways of the Guardians of the Whills, taking up an inelegant weapon for a less civilized age. His “Staccato Lightning” repeating cannon uses a belt of galven circuitry and a refrigerant tank to deliver the equivalent of five laser rifles’ worth of destructive firepower, making Baze a one-man wrecking crew in battle and an agent of retribution for the Empire’s evils.


see what I am asking for here lol....
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:22:39 AM
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disclaimer:


I haven't seen the actual stats for this character and a lot of information has already been changed/edited since the start of this, so I don't know if it will resemble him or not, but the 60 hitpoint, single shot blaster, furious assaulter with like an 8 attack was nowhere near a decent representation of this guy.

now 100 hit points with armor etc that is getting closer for sure....Laugh
Caedus
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:26:09 AM
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Sorry, but unless I watched a different movie, doesn't Baze just kill a bunch of non unique scrub storm troopers (HP 10 on most) and 2 or 3 Death troopers (not released yet) after Chirrut is killed? So 10 damage pretty well represents him. IMHO of course.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:31:06 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Sorry, but unless I watched a different movie, doesn't Baze just kill a bunch of non unique scrub storm troopers (HP 10 on most) and 2 or 3 Death troopers (not released yet) after Chirrut is killed? so 10 damage pretty well represents him. IMHO of course



isn't that what anyone with a blaster in star wars does lol. who do any of them actually kill that make their damage need to be above 10? stormtroopers.... ambush kill some jedi sure, with like tons of blaster bolts, surprise on their side, shooting them in the back, etc.

At least the above says his is 5 times more powerful then a rifle... literally 5 times....

heck even wizards made a sand trooper officer have a base 30 based on..... the...size...of...the...gun....? lol

Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:40:09 AM
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I'm just happy bloomilk has some stuff going on, a lot of people signing in here to read these posts, heck maybe it gets people more involved, look at all the baze customs being made, and people chiming in to defend this piece, I love it, shows enthusiasm and interest, something this game has been lacking for a few sets.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:42:04 AM
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Frankly, arguing over flavor is the lowest form of critique. Anyone can do it, as it's all pretty subjective.


It especially cracks me up when statements are made indicating that the flavor is so far off that it is a farce. As if we gave him a Lightsaber and put him in the Yuuzhan Vong faction, and gave him emplacement. (Oh wait - emplacement is justified because he didn't move while he attacked most of the time.)


Sincerely, the hyperbole of how far off the flavor of this piece is - is so egregiously exaggerated, it is comical.


I'm legitimately enjoying this thread just for the laughs.




If there are concerns over the game mechanics being broken or an NPE - I'll stop laughing and start to have a real conversation.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:46:06 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Frankly, arguing over flavor is the lowest form of critique. Anyone can do it, as it's all pretty subjective.


It especially cracks me up when statements are made indicating that the flavor is so far off that it is a farce. As if we gave him a Lightsaber and put him in the Yuuzhan Vong faction, and gave him emplacement. (Oh wait - emplacement is justified because he didn't move while he attacked most of the time.)


Sincerely, the hyperbole of how far off the flavor of this piece is - is so egregiously exaggerated, it is comical.


I'm legitimately enjoying this thread just for the laughs.




If there are concerns over the game mechanics being broken or an NPE - I'll stop laughing and start to have a real conversation.



ok game mechanics, a resistance trooper does base 20, this guy 10, that's pathetic and way off even from flavor standpoint.
Caedus
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:46:53 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
I'm just happy bloomilk has some stuff going on, a lot of people signing in here to read these posts, heck maybe it gets people more involved, look at all the baze customs being made, and people chiming in to defend this piece, I love it, shows enthusiasm and interest, something this game has been lacking for a few sets.


Playtesting does so much more in helping with the game and limiting "broken pieces". Things cant always be stopped. But not playtesting doesn't give a person a "leg to stand on" when arguing about faulty or incorrect design.

I am speaking on my own experience with conversations with designers. I have never been ignored or mistreated by designers.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:47:04 AM
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and there is a way to make a sith obi-Kenobi... that's about as far off as possible
shmi15
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:49:45 AM
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I'm still on board with this design. I think part of the issue is the handicap the rebel faction has in general because of its abundance of CE, that can boost just about any Unique Rebel.

I am a fan of more restricted squad building, which in my eyes opens designs on pieces. If you forced people to use a minimum of X number of characters for sub factions, it would open a lot.

I think Jen'ari's idea of Rogue one characters only benefiting from them is good, and falls in line with my love for restricted squad building.

But, either way, this particular representation is nothing to scoff at. He is beyond a bargain at 25.... and I hear there is one more ability that will put him over the top? I'm interested in what it is?
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 7:49:55 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
I'm just happy bloomilk has some stuff going on, a lot of people signing in here to read these posts, heck maybe it gets people more involved, look at all the baze customs being made, and people chiming in to defend this piece, I love it, shows enthusiasm and interest, something this game has been lacking for a few sets.


Playtesting does so much more in helping with the game and limiting "broken pieces". Things cant always be stopped. But not playtesting doesn't give a person a "leg to stand on" when arguing about faulty or incorrect design.

I am speaking on my own experience with conversations with designers. I have never been ignored or mistreated by designers.



yeah i'll playtest for sure, and actually I'm a much friendlier playtester then poster for sure lol. and I did playtest when I was asked just recently by someone involved heavily in the game.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 10:07:31 AM
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Caedus wrote:
Sorry, but unless I watched a different movie, doesn't Baze just kill a bunch of non unique scrub storm troopers (HP 10 on most) and 2 or 3 Death troopers (not released yet) after Chirrut is killed? So 10 damage pretty well represents him. IMHO of course.


It is not who he killed it is how he killed and what he killed them with.


DarkDracul wrote:

However, when looking at price-points for squadbuilding in multiple Rebel builds . . . Baze at 30pts or higher made him really difficult to fit into Rebel squads. So we kept him at 25pts.


what??
umm this seems dangerous. Without knowing wat changes you made to keep him at 25 pts (if any) I would say that you simply cannot plan a cost around a design. You make a design and than cost it. OR!! you have to make sure it fits the cost or even if the piece should be a 25 pt piece.

Baze should not be a 25 point piece, he had the most offense in the movie except maybe Imwe.


TimmerB123 wrote:
Frankly, arguing over flavor is the lowest form of critique. Anyone can do it, as it's all pretty subjective.

If there are concerns over the game mechanics being broken or an NPE - I'll stop laughing and start to have a real conversation.


This is what is called rhetoric. It has no meaning. trying to take down importance by saying it is not important...
This type of tactic can be seen in all middle school playgrounds..

Flavor is the the most important form of critique in this game. Why? because the pieces we create represent real characters from Star Wars. Since that is an indisputable fact we are bound by the feats/representation of those characters.
the other reason is that ALL pieces can be designed with flavor in this game. All pieces can represent the characters we know and love.
So it is not subjective at all. Feats can be quantified and power rankings can be made and put into a form for SWM to reflect them.

game mechanics reflect the "reality" of Star Wars.

What if a piece's terrible representation creates an NPE??

this is what happens in my case.
I will say it again. I love the stat line for this piece (minus the 25 cost) and I think it would be a lot of fun. but I will never play it because I will never say, "I will run Baze 12 squares to right here and than shoot everyone". It would make no sense in my head to be able to do that.
I play the game and characters as I would envision them making the decisions themselves.
But with some designs playing them as they appear in Star Wars lore is impossible.
Such as Yaddle.. great for the game, yes, gret representation, negative.


So this is an NPE character because of the name. I cannot just close my eyes to the name. The name means everything.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 10:25:00 AM
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What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So malbus would, were he not Malbus call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Malbus, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.
jen'ari
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 10:30:40 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:

But when flavor overrrides the mechanical in-game function - then it ceases to be Star Wars Miniatures. It would cease to be a strategy game.


this is stating that designers cannot accurately create a piece that reflects who a Star Wars character is.. which is stupid.

It also seems pretty lazy to me as well.

It seems that people do not like the Characters they are presenting that much and that seems to be a big problem. if you want a certain combo of abilities to be in the game start searching which character fits the abilities you want or find someone that almost fits and tweek it a bit to match.

Flavor should never override mechanical in-game function... it never has to.
desire for a certain cost or group of abilities should not override flavor.
Echo24
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 11:15:10 AM
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I don't like to get involved in Bloomilk drama anymore, and in general I disagree with the way in which both sides are making their points in this thread, but I figure I'll give a quick 2 cents about flavor vs. function:

Really, it shouldn't be flavor "vs" function. These two things aren't enemies. Statements about how flavor shouldn't override "the good of the game" are absolutely true, but also beside the point. Things can be both good for the game AND flavorful! I feel that sometimes designers get to a point in design that they have gotten the idea for a certain game mechanic or functionality that they want to implement and start working it into a design, but it gets to the point that it doesn't really fit the flavor anymore. Instead of saying "this isn't very flavorful, we can't do this", they'll say "this isn't very flavorful. Oh well!" (or, even worse, not even notice or care that it isn't flavorful).

It's an easy trap to fall into. Designing without flavor in mind is much, much easier than trying to keep something flavorful. But I actually agree with Jen'ari et al. here, in that it decreases the quality of the game significantly and actually creates NPEs. Flavor is important, and is the primary reason that a lot of players play this game. Flavor isn't so important that something should be made unbalanced or function poorly just to fit flavor, but it IS important enough that it can't be cast aside just to make something balanced or function well. NEITHER should override the other. If a piece fails in either flavor or function, that is a genuine problem.

Some of the designers come at design primarily from a mechanical perspective, which is fine. Others actually do come at it primarily from a flavor perspective, which is also fine. A good game and a good gaming product takes both into account. The real goal of game designers shouldn't be to just make a perfectly balanced and competitive game. That's A goal, but not THE goal. THE goal should be to make a fun game! That's why we play games! Obviously, balance is a large part of a game being fun. But flavor is a large part of that, too. So is complexity, aesthetics, player agency, all sorts of stuff. Game design is complicated. But pitting function vs flavor like you have to or should pick one over the other is, I think, a disservice to the game and to the players who are here to play a Star Wars game and not just a strategy game.
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 11:28:25 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
We do try and have great Star Wars theme and accurate flavor, but all that means nothing if the function is bad. Ideally there is both, but impossible to achieve all the time.
shmi15
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 12:01:55 PM
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I think we just need the rest of him spoiled :)
TimmerB123
Posted: Monday, June 5, 2017 12:02:36 PM
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To be clear - I don't know of any designers that blatently disregard flavor. We all try to make representations that we find accurate.

The problem is that it is all subjective.


We play a strategy game, with a fairly narrow (in the scheme of everything) set of mechanics to define fictional characters. Everything in our game - EVERYTHING - is an abstraction.

Nothing is real. There are no actual lightsaber fights happening.



So - what one person thinks is a perfectly acceptable abstraction, others may not.


I truly think Baze is flavorful and a good representation of the character from the film.


I DISAGREE that the flavor isn't accurate.


But arguing about flavor is a fruitless endeavor. It's like telling someone that they are wrong for liking green as their favorite color.





A few people quibbling over whether predictable targets or furious assault is more accurate to the character concerns me not. Any character will fall short for the fanboy wet dream conception.



What I have seen so far in this thread is exaggeration to the point of parody about how this character is an incorrect representation.



There will never be a design that pleases everyone. Ever.


A thread talking about how badly a character is represented before it was even spoiled, that lead to it being slowly revealed, is - I must admit - completely new and unexpected territory.





When talking about mechanics vs flavor - I tend to find people come for the flavor, and stay for the mechanics. And leave due to bad mechanics, not bad flavor. They complain about bad flavor, sure. But nobody quit the game because a character wasn't well represented. Many have quit the game due to broken mechanics that make the game not fun. A character can be fun to play even if it isn't 100% accurate. If a character is broken, it doesn't matter how perfect the flavor is - it's bad for the game.
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