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V-set 4 and epic expansion loves and hates Options
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 5:15:11 PM
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I think he means the new Jabba's CE.
Mike Moore Smuggler
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 5:51:40 PM
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Can someone please clear up 2 things for me.

1. Can you open doors during Battle Ready movements? It would seem a wasted ability if you couldn't as there are only 2 or 3 maps that you can use the ability to it's full.

2. If I use new epic Boba in a new republic squad but bring in a Mandalorian commader, say Mandalore the Vindicated does Boba benefit from his commander effect or is Boba considered New Republic? In the same way would Jaina Sword of the Jedi gain twin from Boba as she can count as Mandalorian?
AndyHatton
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:18:52 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
AndyHatton wrote:
The original Kid Boba Fett was Young Mercenary and he didn't have Mercenary. I thought it was a nice little reference to that. And the fact that putting BH in his name means he still qualifies for CEs.


No, it does not.


I was specifically referring to the new Jabba and the old Jabba the Hutt. I assumed like Wookiee if he had "bounty hunter" in his name he counted as a Bounty Hunter for old Jabba's CE (new Jabba specifically says name contains.) Not specifically CEs that check to see if they have the ability Bounty Hunter.
Boris
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:20:26 PM
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MaliciousCrumb wrote:
This isn't something that I really don't like, but it's more of a criticism. I think that the new Grievous should've had a commander effect because he was a general at that time, and was commanding a huge amount of super battle droids.


The vision of him in this concept is more of his one-on-one fight with Obi-Wan on the catwalk. He really wasn't too worried about what the army of Droids was doing when he threw out his extra arms to come at the Jedi Master in his path. (At least, in my opinion, and the other designers as we discussed it.)
Sithborg
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:21:22 PM
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Old Jabba doesn't work. Just like with Mercenaries, things that refer to Bounty Hunters refers only to figures with the Bounty Hunter SA. Also a source of ire with the original ruling on pre-errata Xizor.
AndyHatton
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:41:43 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
Old Jabba doesn't work. Just like with Mercenaries, things that refer to Bounty Hunters refers only to figures with the Bounty Hunter SA. Also a source of ire with the original ruling on pre-errata Xizor.


oh ok I wasn't aware of the precedent with Mercenary.
TimmerB123
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:23:14 PM
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Boris wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
as for mara yeah gotta wonder what they were thinking, Luke FS giving someone Mettle, Mara giving Avoid Defeat, Leia giving Rerolls - that's only 93 points leaving plenty of room in a 200 point squad.


Lord Vader uses Overwhelming Force. Morrigan has Suppressive Fire. Several characters have Brutal Strike. We didn't just make the CE without thinking it through, and it was playtested. We never heard any complaints. I realize on its face it looks tough - especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set - but we made several hard counters to these things in set 4, so give it a whirl before passing judgement. BigGrin


Um, to my knowledge none on these things effect avoid defeat.
CerousMutor
Posted: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 11:38:19 PM
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DARPH NADER wrote:
Misses

Flim (for those of you who play tested him, you'll know what I'm talking about. O what might have been!)


This makes me sad lol
I loved the books and was very excited to see the 3 conspirators in this squad, very disappointed on how they turned out. I'd love to know 'what might have been'
I expected young Boba to have a little more going on.
Love the IG love now! About time!
Anakin Solo and Force Meld! Thank you!
Mara! Thank you!!
Lord_Ball
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 3:38:58 AM
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Boris wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
as for mara yeah gotta wonder what they were thinking, Luke FS giving someone Mettle, Mara giving Avoid Defeat, Leia giving Rerolls - that's only 93 points leaving plenty of room in a 200 point squad.


Lord Vader uses Overwhelming Force. Morrigan has Suppressive Fire. Several characters have Brutal Strike. We didn't just make the CE without thinking it through, and it was playtested. We never heard any complaints. I realize on its face it looks tough - especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set - but we made several hard counters to these things in set 4, so give it a whirl before passing judgement. BigGrin


Out of all the characters in the set Mara is definitely the one I like the least (someone has to claim that spot anyway). I'm not saying Mara is unbeatable or anything like that, but she's in a Faction where great CEs are plentiful and many compliment each other making for some really ANNOYING skirmishes (which is where I have the problem - partially cause my dice don't usually like me). I'm definitely GLAD she was restricted to followers as that does show how you took other things of the faction into consideration, however I still think you guys went overboard on this one. She doesn't feel like Mara to me, to me she feels more like someone has a Mara "fetish" and wanted an "uber utility piece" so she would see a lot more play (I'm not saying that is the case - just the feeling the force tells me to have in regards to the matter).

To me if you feel the need to make "several hard counters" to address a figure - you should probably first look at adjusting the figure, but that's just my point of view.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 5:26:05 AM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Boris wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
as for mara yeah gotta wonder what they were thinking, Luke FS giving someone Mettle, Mara giving Avoid Defeat, Leia giving Rerolls - that's only 93 points leaving plenty of room in a 200 point squad.


Lord Vader uses Overwhelming Force. Morrigan has Suppressive Fire. Several characters have Brutal Strike. We didn't just make the CE without thinking it through, and it was playtested. We never heard any complaints. I realize on its face it looks tough - especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set - but we made several hard counters to these things in set 4, so give it a whirl before passing judgement. BigGrin


Um, to my knowledge none on these things effect avoid defeat.


Suppressive Fire would get through Mara giving out Avoid Defeat, although it wouldn't do anything about it being on her card.

I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia, but you deal with it the exact same way you deal with all Leia Skywalker squads: kill her first. You don't try to cut through Kol Skywalker with his double Block rolls or whatever, you go kill her. Yeah, Winter makes it more difficult, but she is still relatively easy to kill even with Avoid Defeat. Everything having to be within 6 hurts it somewhat, too. You just go kill Winter first, then Leia, then Mara. Or just kill Mara when she isn't benefiting from Leia's CE (too far from her or kill the mouse droids). The damage output for that squad is really pretty low, and there is a relatively easy way around the survivability, so it shouldn't be an issue.
adamb0nd
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 5:47:35 AM
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Boris wrote:
especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set


Can you please explain what you meant by this? I know Jaq was a great piece, heard a lot about how useful he was, and how he played completely different in sith than OR, but i'm not sure what "trouble" you reference. Just curious.

Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 6:32:19 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Boris wrote:
especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set


Can you please explain what you meant by this? I know Jaq was a great piece, heard a lot about how useful he was, and how he played completely different in sith than OR, but i'm not sure what "trouble" you reference. Just curious.



There has been some complaints about Override on a main attacker, as well as Avoid Defeat.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 6:43:55 AM
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Sithborg wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Boris wrote:
especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set


Can you please explain what you meant by this? I know Jaq was a great piece, heard a lot about how useful he was, and how he played completely different in sith than OR, but i'm not sure what "trouble" you reference. Just curious.



There has been some complaints about Override on a main attacker, as well as Avoid Defeat.


Nah - Jaq's awesome.
Boris
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 6:48:15 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Boris wrote:
especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set


Can you please explain what you meant by this? I know Jaq was a great piece, heard a lot about how useful he was, and how he played completely different in sith than OR, but i'm not sure what "trouble" you reference. Just curious.



There's been some complaining about a Force user with Avoid Defeat.

@Lord Ball: I didn't say we made hard counters to address Mara. I said we made hard counters to damage negation. The goal of the NR Mara was to make something that was different but interesting from the long over-used Mara Jade Jedi. From a game standpoint, there's really not much difference between her CE and things like Rieekan or the new Yoda or General Wedge.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 6:52:06 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia


If you give Mara Mettle and she uses 2 force points (in addition to rerolls from Leia), her chances of survival are 85%+. Of course, she wouldn't be able to use 2 force points for very long.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 7:01:08 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia


If you give Mara Mettle and she uses 2 force points (in addition to rerolls from Leia), her chances of survival are 85%+. Of course, she wouldn't be able to use 2 force points for very long.


Yeah, so you kill Leia or the Force Spirit first. Or just burn her FP out, which shouldn't take long if she's regularly spending 2. A squad built around Mara and Leia might be alright, but I don't think it will be too strong or annoying, the order in which you kill things is just really important. That's always been somewhat true of Leia squads, though; kill her first and things will be way easier than if you try to kill other things first.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 7:07:33 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia


If you give Mara Mettle and she uses 2 force points (in addition to rerolls from Leia), her chances of survival are 85%+. Of course, she wouldn't be able to use 2 force points for very long.


And I'm just seeing a watered down squad. Considering Avoid Defeat only puts her up to 10 HPs, starting the cycle over is very easy.
Lord_Ball
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 7:11:57 AM
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Boris wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Boris wrote:
especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set


Can you please explain what you meant by this? I know Jaq was a great piece, heard a lot about how useful he was, and how he played completely different in sith than OR, but i'm not sure what "trouble" you reference. Just curious.



There's been some complaining about a Force user with Avoid Defeat.

@Lord Ball: I didn't say we made hard counters to address Mara. I said we made hard counters to damage negation. The goal of the NR Mara was to make something that was different but interesting from the long over-used Mara Jade Jedi. From a game standpoint, there's really not much difference between her CE and things like Rieekan or the new Yoda or General Wedge.


I wasn't specifically talking about mara when I brought that up either (hence why it was seperatted from the part of my post about mara), and perhaps I misinterpretted what you were saying, but the point stands that if a figure or ability created warrants a "hard counter" it requires more balancing.

From a game standpoint the new mara is an annoying figure - much like Rieekan and Wedge are only a bit more extreme in that there are clear and easy (every single attacker can do it) counters to evade - get adjacent. Not every attacker can counter Avoid Defeat and when it's on a character that has rather high survivability (decent HP, Defense and LS Defense) and decent to good damage output and force points for rerolls in a faction that can get auto rerolls and she could even gain mettle you up the annoyance to near intolerable levels. Add in that when she does finally bite the dust her ally gets a free attack (not huge, but certainly more icing on the cake). Again there are ways to deal with her certainly - she isn't going to "break the game" but she has high potential to take a lot of fun out of it - and that is why I don't like her.

* The most annoying thing about wedge and especially rieekan is that they are cheap costing figures with powerful CE - so at least Mara isn't cheap!ThumbsUp
AndyHatton
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 7:19:29 AM
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Echo24 wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Boris wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
as for mara yeah gotta wonder what they were thinking, Luke FS giving someone Mettle, Mara giving Avoid Defeat, Leia giving Rerolls - that's only 93 points leaving plenty of room in a 200 point squad.


Lord Vader uses Overwhelming Force. Morrigan has Suppressive Fire. Several characters have Brutal Strike. We didn't just make the CE without thinking it through, and it was playtested. We never heard any complaints. I realize on its face it looks tough - especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set - but we made several hard counters to these things in set 4, so give it a whirl before passing judgement. BigGrin


Um, to my knowledge none on these things effect avoid defeat.


Suppressive Fire would get through Mara giving out Avoid Defeat, although it wouldn't do anything about it being on her card.

I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia, but you deal with it the exact same way you deal with all Leia Skywalker squads: kill her first. You don't try to cut through Kol Skywalker with his double Block rolls or whatever, you go kill her. Yeah, Winter makes it more difficult, but she is still relatively easy to kill even with Avoid Defeat. Everything having to be within 6 hurts it somewhat, too. You just go kill Winter first, then Leia, then Mara. Or just kill Mara when she isn't benefiting from Leia's CE (too far from her or kill the mouse droids). The damage output for that squad is really pretty low, and there is a relatively easy way around the survivability, so it shouldn't be an issue.


MARA's CE only affects Force Using Followers so both Winter and Leia do not benefit. Leia has always been a defensive weak point in NR squads. Find her and kill her and Avoid Defeat won't be so bad.

Edit for being a dumb dumb and putting the wrong name.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, September 6, 2012 7:23:07 AM
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AndyHatton wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
Boris wrote:
Lord_Ball wrote:
as for mara yeah gotta wonder what they were thinking, Luke FS giving someone Mettle, Mara giving Avoid Defeat, Leia giving Rerolls - that's only 93 points leaving plenty of room in a 200 point squad.


Lord Vader uses Overwhelming Force. Morrigan has Suppressive Fire. Several characters have Brutal Strike. We didn't just make the CE without thinking it through, and it was playtested. We never heard any complaints. I realize on its face it looks tough - especially given the trouble with Jaq in the last set - but we made several hard counters to these things in set 4, so give it a whirl before passing judgement. BigGrin


Um, to my knowledge none on these things effect avoid defeat.


Suppressive Fire would get through Mara giving out Avoid Defeat, although it wouldn't do anything about it being on her card.

I don't think Mara is too bad. Avoid Defeat only has a 25% chance of happening; it goes up quite a bit (to 56.25%) with Leia, but you deal with it the exact same way you deal with all Leia Skywalker squads: kill her first. You don't try to cut through Kol Skywalker with his double Block rolls or whatever, you go kill her. Yeah, Winter makes it more difficult, but she is still relatively easy to kill even with Avoid Defeat. Everything having to be within 6 hurts it somewhat, too. You just go kill Winter first, then Leia, then Mara. Or just kill Mara when she isn't benefiting from Leia's CE (too far from her or kill the mouse droids). The damage output for that squad is really pretty low, and there is a relatively easy way around the survivability, so it shouldn't be an issue.


Leia's CE only affects Force Using Followers so both Winter and Leia do not benefit. Leia has always been a defensive weak point in NR squads. Find her and kill her and Avoid Defeat won't be so bad.



(Assuming you mean Mara's CE, because you're right about that)

Oh man, good point. I forgot that Mara didn't help Winter. So yeah, Mara + Leia + Winter isn't even that strong. Neither Winter nor Leia benefit from Mara. The damage output in your squad is relatively low and the survivability gimmick is easy to get around.
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