Yes, Tim, 5 sets. PotAYto, PotAHto.
Ideally (ie, on paper), yes: strafe/gallop should walk all over a Daala squad that has no protection against it. But we've already established that a single Lancer won't usually have enough activations to handle most Daala squads (especially not the ones that have no strafe protection and thus more troopers/activations). I've also commented that Yobuck might be decent, but he'll be weak vs almost everything else, and therefore not a good choice for a tourney unless you're expecting to see 90% Daala squads. As I said earlier, it's my opinion that a GGDAC Lancer (or 2) might be the best counter to Daala, but that's coming from me, who doesn't know the Lancer half as well as either you or Tim. All of this is just theory-crafting of course, but I'm just afraid that the strafe/gallop counters look strong vs Daala on paper, but that they don't have what it takes against a well-run Daala squad. I guess we'll have to see.

As I've mentioned a few times, I really hope that we're over-reacting and that we don't actually have a restricted meta (the GOWK-Snowspeeder meta was ugly). But having played against several of the NZ guys before, I highly respect their skill and knowledge of the game. So if the NZ guys are saying that Daala is dominating over there, I'm expecting she probably will over here too.

Dr Daman has been doing very well with Raxus Primes, Needa, Piett, and GARY - no Snowtroopers. That Officer is really strong though.

Weir never really got a lot of play in New Zealand (although he did make the final of the NZ Nationals in 2012), but we did see a lot of Mace around that time. Mace won two consecutive Majors around 2011-12 and saw a lot of play, but I don't think any of us found him excessive - Daala is feeling like a whole new level of dominance that we haven't seen before - she's winning more than 90% of her games that aren't against other Daala squads.




Elite Scouts are good, but they just plain lose to the higher numbers swarms of Snow Troopers and Raxus Prime Troopers. Elite Scouts are arguably best at 100, since they don't need much support to be good, it seems pretty equal at 150 (Snow Troopers defeated Elite Scouts) in a very tight final, and the 4 pointers dominate at 200. I think high defense (eg Mace with GOWK in cover) could work against Raxus swarm, which I think max out at +13, but the Snow Troopers can get their attacks really high (up to +20 I think?).




I think this is on the money. There might be things that can deal with Daala OK, but overall I think it's going to result in less viable squad types than there were previously.

Dropping the Snowtrooper Officer isn't sufficient, clearly.

Drop Daala? Without her, I see this as a Tier 1 build, but I'm not sure it's still broken. What do you think? The number of troopers and damage output is still impressive (10 troopers and ~600 damage per round possible. Damage output is knocked down a peg, range is reduced (but still impressive with Zygerrians), and without Daala's Rapport, you lose at least 2 troopers. Raxus Primes arguably aren't Tier 1 without Daala because their attack maxes out at +9 (+13 with Needa) and damage at 20 (30 for one of them if you can somehow fit in a Stormtrooper Commander). Nice for a deep strike option on something weak, but not fear-inducing.

--No Daala Snowtroopers--
32 Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo)
27 Lobot
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
16 Grand Admiral Rulf Yage
14 Snowtrooper Commander
13 Czerka Scientist
12 Snowtrooper Officer
8 Mas Amedda
8 Zygerrian Slaver
5 Raxus Prime Trooper
45 Snowtrooper x9
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 8 Zygerrian Slaver
(Lobot) 6 Rodian Brute x2
(Lobot) 6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(199pts. 25 activations)


Drop Zygerrians? Weeks put this up a long time ago. With the Vset 7 strafe counters, I think it could dominate even without Zygerrians. 90 damage Snowtroopers. Drop a Czerka for a LIN for some protection.

--Dalaa's Snow Patrol--
27 Admiral Daala
20 Admiral Piett
16 Admiral Gilad Pellaeon
16 Grand Admiral Rulf Yage
26 Czerka Scientist x2
13 Snowtrooper Commander
11 Snowtrooper Officer
8 Mas Amedda
8 R7 Astromech Droid
48 Snowtrooper x12
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(195pts. 24 activations)

the only piece that needs banning, if any, is the Zygerian slaver.

Remove that and you don't have the incredible deep strikes without including thrawn.

I can see why the piece was made (helps uggies blow doors) but I don't think the whole impact was thought through.

Also, the Zygerrian could potentially be just as bad in a Tarpals/Naboo squad. Now those Troopers have 30 square charging fire.

I've been playing around with Tarpals/Zygerrians/Bespins recently, and I've done pretty well, even against Yobuck. Now, I'm sure Naboo Troopers are more efficient than Bespin Security Guards. I feel the Zygerrian would have been fine if it were limited to Fringe characters. That way it's still helpful, but not completely broken.

I agree with this, I don't think Daala is broken, the Zygerrians are the real problem (though I agree that her Rapport doesn't help.) The Zygerrians are a great idea for helping Fringe Tech...but creating these super deep strikes is a problem in my opinion.

Jeez Furious+Prideful+Accurate from Veers...that would have been the worst thing ever.

And I was about to say something similar, playtesters may not have been given all 3 pieces to playtest together. I think it is the combination that is the problem, alone they may not seem like a problem. When I've playtested in the past I haven't been given all the pieces in a requested faction and I usually wasn't given Fringe Tech to test out.

Zygerrians might be an issue, but I think even Weeks' version above without a Zygerrian would still be dominant. With Daala/Piett/GARY but not the Snowtrooper Officer, Snowtroopers could still get +20 attack and 70 dmg with a Czerka. However, the Stormtrooper Officer makes it far easier to maintain the Squad Attack bonus and adds 50% more troopers to the mix (dropping the cost from 6 to 4). Plus boosts the damage to 90 per trooper. The weaknesses are Bastila and Strafe, of course, but Vset7 brings the strafe counters and you can (probably) wait out Bastila. Running 24 (or 36 or 48) is amazing, but running 12 is already pretty great.

Raxus Primes without Daala won't break anything even with Zygerrians. I don't even think they'd be tier 1. They can run wherever they want, but they aren't going to hit high-def pieces without Daala and their damage is cut in half. They can get Cunning/Opp and Needa's reroll, but that maxes out at +9/20dmg (+13 on the reroll). An annoyance in the backfield for sure, but with all the commanders required to boost them it's not game breaking.

So...

Daala + Zygerrian + Snowtrooper Officer = potentially broken
Daala + Zygerrian (Raxus Primes) = potentially broken
Daala + Snowtrooper Officer = potentially broken

Snowtrooper Officer + Zygerrian = Not sure. Take a look at one attempt.
http://www.bloomilk.com/Squad/137780/no-daala-snowtroopers

Daala alone = not broken
Zygerrian +Raxus Prime (no Daala) = not broken
Snowtrooper Officer alone = I don't think he'd be an issue by himself

Another issue, of course, is that the biggest natural enemy is strafe and we just got some great counters to strafe (finally). So that just strengthens these builds.


The Zygerrian may also be an issue in other builds (like swap or other swarms), so he may need a tweak or ban based on that. But in an Imperial trooper-centric build like the ones we are discussing here, the mobility doesn't matter that much if the attack/damage isn't high enough to make a difference. Daala gives +4/+20dmg. The Snowtrooper Officer effectively grants another +4/+10 (by making the Squad abilities work). (And together they nearly double the number of Snowtroopers.) Without one of those atk/dmg boosts, the Zygerrian isn't that threatening in these builds.

It's almost like any 2 of the 3 cause a problem but they're all fine on their own.

Wihtout the Zygs you have a different version of Naboo squads. Its more numerous with higher output but there are no deathshots, no evade and very little twin.

When you can predict the 12 square movement these pieces have you can pick them off using stealth or mobile and get ahead forcing the Imperial player to play more aggressively, kind of like the Naboo play but with differences. You are hoping that the opponent leaves something hanging.

With the Zygs all bets are off because the range is now 24 and its much much harder to hide from and the imperial player can just trade the 4 pointer for something more expensive and turn the tables. Once ahead the imperial player forces the opponent into the meat grinder.

I'm convinced the Zyg is the issue, even with all the strafe hate. Yobuck doesn't really fear the LINs that much especially if he can gallop away 5-6 troopers on his way taking 40 dmg, but with a mid round 24 range strike to take out the republics swap fodder or R2 the Dalaa squad has answers for what would be (should be) the troopers squad Achilles heel.

Best fix other than outright banning it is the "fringe" fix. That keeps brutes and uggies being used which makes for some silly swap shennanigans 1st round but it prevents troopers and pilots from getting it which is currently the big issue.

Does changing it to Fringe just move the problem to Talon Karrde? What are his best builds with Zygerrians?