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Dr Daman wrote:As The Hutts said, its a meta call. If Boba was around when I was winning with Cad swap, I still would've taken Cad. Boba is very good at what he does, but he can't take down a 120hp Jedi like Cad can. If the meta shifts to rock squads, I'd stick with Cads damage over Bobas tricks. And I just disagree. Boba has more hp, higher defense, better atk against non-uniques, accurate triple, quick draw (underrated), evade/B&S as upposed to stealth and is 4 points less. I would rather have the more survivable, accurate, scizzors shooter than the one that can put 30 more damage on. That isnt a big enough difference for me. I have played double swap with boba against multiple rock squads. Mace/Gowk, Prof Luke, Caedus Malgus, OR army of light, Charging vong, Cin & Serra, Thon Song, Lord Krayt and I may be forgetting some. You bring in Dr. E, a couple diplomats and these match-ups are not difficult. (OR Pilots was mixed shooters and melee) Going into gencon my biggest worries was that I wouldnt have enough damage per round to take out rock squads. What I found in play testing is that 90 damage per round is plenty. If you get into a tight situation the you can always dominate boba. If your opponent has substantial range defense then you either swap adjacent or use evazen as your main attacker. (against shien stile or SSM)
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
Because this is definitely 2006, before the V-Set and the plethroa of abilities and meta changes happened.
You missed my point. These exact same arguments happened when Boba, BH was introduced. All the reasons we're seeing being given for Boba, AoH being broken and overpowered are fundamentally identical to the arguments about Boba, BH when he came out. And like those arguments, we have the top-tier competitive players defending him stating that while he is a high-tier piece, he's not the end-all be-all piece that others claim him to be; He's just a good choice because he's a consistent ranged damage dealer, and having a reliable character like that makes him a good overall add.
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Yeah, well, boba while strong and totally outclasses Cad, he isn't really the problem.
It would be Cad bane double swap if not Boba. It was already awesome before people abused the activation advantage. The activation advantage takes it to absurd levels and the only way to beat it reliably is to out activate it. Hence the mouse shit, although that was also a statement, things must change.
The issue is several fold, all compounding.
isolating the top issue is like peeling an onion, you get an equally smelly layer underneath.
The current problem is double swap with high activations, activation control and master tactician. You get everything. You go last, you go first and you get to pretty much any square you want, shooting whatever you want and then disappearing. Only way to beat that is for every piece to be able to absorb it (it being the damage which is 150 accurate but even then, with double swap evade is easy to remove because you have up to 34 squares of movement) or you go last.
Both Jim and I made sure we went last. I went the extra step to ensure I went first also leaving the only advantage being movement.
The major issue currently is the sheer movement double swap gives with the added bones of being able to shoot almost everything In LOS. You don't stand much chance without being able to match it for speed or activations.
Essentially the Imperials have gotten too fast.
Take that away, together with stupid 2 point activations and things might start to come back. However, you then start to fall back to durge on speeder, or grievous on wheelbike. Also pretty high activation squads with high activations and tempo control.
So it starts to become a question of how far do we peel?
How many layers should go?
Clearly, recent designs have given enough power to the seps and imperials that they can really drive high activations and still be effective. The balance is off, the high activation squads have too much power and it's very hard for other squads to compete as the swap squad is so good at picking off tech, commanders, door control or any easy target.
So you either make the weaker factions better able to cope and/or skim off the advantages.
limiting activation costs to a minimum of 3 reduces numbers immeadeately. Excluding multiple reinforcement/bribery pieces on the same squad curbs excessive dumping. Classing mice as tiny (no cover and don't block movement). These would all reduce high end squad numbers and alter their effectiveness. Although it's possible that battle droids replace mice in seps and brutes in imps and the overall effectiveness is the same because the games lowest cost pieces can double shoot or be swapped.
So how far do we peel the onion?
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DARPH NADER wrote:AndyHatton wrote:Imperial Governor probably needs a second go especially because I seem to remember reading somewhere NO ONE brought up Double Swap while playtesting.
What surprises me is that this was even on the table in the first place given the playtesting of the original Flim and the overt concern regarding the double swap back then. It seems memories are short. Returning to Cryostasis... This also surprises me, when I first realized what the Imperial Governor could do. Gerry play tested that version of Flim and pointed out, that in the first round, the Imperial player could have a killer in his opponents backyard. Two activations later, 90 or 120 damage (each act) later. Game over.
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atmsalad wrote:Dr Daman wrote:As The Hutts said, its a meta call. If Boba was around when I was winning with Cad swap, I still would've taken Cad. Boba is very good at what he does, but he can't take down a 120hp Jedi like Cad can. If the meta shifts to rock squads, I'd stick with Cads damage over Bobas tricks. And I just disagree. Boba has more hp, higher defense, better atk against non-uniques, accurate triple, quick draw (underrated), evade/B&S as upposed to stealth and is 4 points less. I would rather have the more survivable, accurate, scizzors shooter than the one that can put 30 more damage on. That isnt a big enough difference for me. I have played double swap with boba against multiple rock squads. Mace/Gowk, Prof Luke, Caedus Malgus, OR army of light, Charging vong, Cin & Serra, Thon Song, Lord Krayt and I may be forgetting some. You bring in Dr. E, a couple diplomats and these match-ups are not difficult. (OR Pilots was mixed shooters and melee) Going into gencon my biggest worries was that I wouldnt have enough damage per round to take out rock squads. What I found in play testing is that 90 damage per round is plenty. If you get into a tight situation the you can always dominate boba. If your opponent has substantial range defense then you either swap adjacent or use evazen as your main attacker. (against shien stile or SSM) It was a meta call for me, ATM. Like TINT, I like Boba, but to win I was willing to use Cad. Unfortunately, in this meta with all of the mice I needed to be able to get to seperatist droid shooters and couldn't be guaranteed of getting to them. In the absence of mice, Cad works better in my squad. I can win the mirror match against Boba, and have the potential to take out 2 of those 50hp droid shooters. By GenCon I knew that mice would be an issue so I went with Boba. Unlike you, without Lobot I forced myself to go with what I brought...I couldn't customize.
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atmsalad wrote:Dr Daman wrote:As The Hutts said, its a meta call. If Boba was around when I was winning with Cad swap, I still would've taken Cad. Boba is very good at what he does, but he can't take down a 120hp Jedi like Cad can. If the meta shifts to rock squads, I'd stick with Cads damage over Bobas tricks. And I just disagree. Boba has more hp, higher defense, better atk against non-uniques, accurate triple, quick draw (underrated), evade/B&S as upposed to stealth and is 4 points less. I would rather have the more survivable, accurate, scizzors shooter than the one that can put 30 more damage on. That isnt a big enough difference for me. I have played double swap with boba against multiple rock squads. Mace/Gowk, Prof Luke, Caedus Malgus, OR army of light, Charging vong, Cin & Serra, Thon Song, Lord Krayt and I may be forgetting some. You bring in Dr. E, a couple diplomats and these match-ups are not difficult. (OR Pilots was mixed shooters and melee) Going into gencon my biggest worries was that I wouldnt have enough damage per round to take out rock squads. What I found in play testing is that 90 damage per round is plenty. If you get into a tight situation the you can always dominate boba. If your opponent has substantial range defense then you either swap adjacent or use evazen as your main attacker. (against shien stile or SSM) I play rock squads a lot, and the only time I am really worried about Evazan is when he's being run with tarpals. Otherwise, I just kill him really quick and he only gets 30 dmg on me. 30 auto dmg + the 30 dmg heal is nice, but its not quite the rock beater you make it out to be. You need a lot more support around evazan to deal with rock squads than just Evazan. I've played against Evazan many times, and he's always the first person to die to my tanks. I guess if you have init control he gets better because that is 60 dmg back to back. Tarpals with Dr.E + Quiggy FS is the one I am most worried running against with my tank squads.
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holy piss. is this real? I feel like I am taking crazy pills! you people are impossible. these arguments against boba are absurd. 5 out of 8 gencon squads are boba, boba wins gencon, "dominated" all tournaments he has been in.
he is not a problem? wake up.
no one ran cad bane in the top 8 right? yep, there you have it boba is not close to cad, the best players in the game choose a different shooter, that OUGHT to man something to everyone, it wasn't three choose boba and two choose cad. it was All 5 of them were boba.
you can say I just don't like cad, our sev would have been better, easy to say, but boba was chosen.
cad bane does not have accurate, nuff said, he cannot do what boba can do. his effectiveness Is not as high, his versatility is not as high.
mouse droids are a problem, activations are a problem, boba is a problem get the balance team to make a decision on those things. talk is cheap here because out gets buried by ignorance
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maybe MTG had it right the entire time. No more than 4 of the same card, in a deck. I think 4 mice would get it's actual purpose accomplished. 4 would also limit the poggle bomb stuff too.
Sorry, just kind of posting to hear myself talk. Please don't let me interrupt the riveting "Duck season! Rabbit Season!" Boba arguing.
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jen'ari wrote:holy piss. is this real? I feel like I am taking crazy pills! you people are impossible. these arguments against boba are absurd. 5 out of 8 gencon squads are boba, boba wins gencon, "dominated" all tournaments he has been in.
he is not a problem? wake up.
no one ran cad bane in the top 8 right? yep, there you have it boba is not close to cad, the best players in the game choose a different shooter, that OUGHT to man something to everyone, it wasn't three choose boba and two choose cad. it was All 5 of them were boba.
you can say I just don't like cad, our sev would have been better, easy to say, but boba was chosen.
cad bane does not have accurate, nuff said, he cannot do what boba can do. his effectiveness Is not as high, his versatility is not as high.
mouse droids are a problem, activations are a problem, boba is a problem get the balance team to make a decision on those things. talk is cheap here because out gets buried by ignorance +1. I can't believe this conversation has gone full circle to people thinking BAFH isn't horribly undercosted.
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OK. Instead of saying Boba is a problem, without saying why he is a problem, here is my take on why he is a problem.
Fringe Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50
Hit Points:110
Defense:20
Attack:12
Damage:20
Special Abilities
Unique Not a problem
Triple Attack Could be a problem when combined with the other SA's. So right now, problem.
Greater Mobile Attack Problem
Accurate Shot Problem But, all Bobas have this.
Bait and Switch Problem Potential for realy long life.
Bounty Hunter +4 Not a problem Base +12 usually has another +4 attack anyway
Evade Not a problem Most Bobas have this
Flight Not a problem Most Bobas have this
Quick Draw Not a problem
Single-Shot Blaster Not a problem
Wrist Cable Not a problem
After going through this post, I feel he is undercosted.
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juice man wrote:OK. Instead of saying Boba is a problem, without saying why he is a problem, here is my take on why he is a problem.
Fringe Boba Fett, Assassin for Hire 50
Hit Points:110
Defense:20
Attack:12
Damage:20
Special Abilities
Unique Not a problem
Triple Attack Could be a problem when combined with the other SA's. So right now, problem.
Greater Mobile Attack Problem
Accurate Shot Problem But, all Bobas have this.
Bait and Switch Problem Potential for realy long life.
Bounty Hunter +4 Not a problem Base +12 usually has another +4 attack anyway
Evade Not a problem Most Bobas have this
Flight Not a problem Most Bobas have this
Quick Draw Not a problem
Single-Shot Blaster Not a problem
Wrist Cable Not a problem
After going through this post, I feel he is undercosted. I have Bolded One other Issue i can see. I think his HP is a little on the High Side for what he can do. 80-90 would be more accurate for cost and abilities. Now that being said I Feel that the major changes to him need to be -Triple, +Double, 80 HP. This would acctually balance him with Cad very well. Allowing him to be a choice more often. More Damage or Accurate 
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Compare Boba to some of the better shooters in the game. Let's look at
Captain Rex cost 33 (vs 50)
HP: 70 (vs 110)
DEF: 16 (vs 20)
ATK: 12 (vs 12)
DMG: 20 (vs 20)
Unique
Order 66
Double
Greater Mobile
Penetration 10
Twin
6 abilities, he tops out at 80 dmg. Has mobility. Has zero defensive capabilities, a crappy defense. Decent HP.
Now compare that to Boba AFH
Unique
Triple
Greater Mobile
Accurate Shot
Bait & Switch
Bounty Hunter 4
Evade
Flight
Quick Draw
Single Shot Blaster
Wrist Cable
11 abilities, maxes out at 60 dmg, but with Accurate. So he does 20 less dmg, but he can shoot things Rex cannot. So while Rex has to get into the fight, Boba does not. Rex can shoot 2 targets, Boba can shoot 3. Both are mobile. Boba has better HP, better Defense, and has 2 defensive abilities, one of which is Built in Swap. His attack can easily be a 16 on his own. Oh, and as if all of that wasn't enough he can activate pieces.
sorry but I'm paying the 17 extra points for Boba. Plus Boba can benefit from one of the Republic's best commanders Yularen while Rex cannot. It's not even a choice to me.
Next up let's look at Atton Rand.
Not too long ago, Atton was in the conversation as best shooter in the game. This was when Kaan Bomb was tearing it up.
Atton "Jaq" Rand cost 36 (vs 50) so just 14 more points for Boba.
HP: 80 (vs 110)
DEF: 18 (vs 20)
ATK: 9 (vs 12)
DMG: 20 (vs 20)
Unique
Pilot
Double
Greater Mobile
Affinity
Assassin
Avoid Defeat
Override
Force 3
Jedi Mind Trick
Ok, so 8 special abilities, 2 force powers. Solid base statline. Atton better hope he doesn't face Seps Droids, because he will only have a 9atk. Boba on the otherhand will have a 12. Atton tops out at 60 dmg if his opponents are living. So game plan for Atton, the same as it is for most unique shooters whose name is not Boba Fett Assassin For Hire, run some mouse droids in front of your things that you don't wish to be shot to death, and laugh at Atton while he tries to deal with your 24 D mouse droid (assuming he doesn't have clear LoS). Both Atton and Fett can activate pieces after they are done attacking Atton can activate someone at a range of 2, compared to Boba's range of 6.
So I ask myself would I rather run Atton in Kaan Bomb with the Force Spirit and the Commander to support him, or would I rather swap Boba around with Revan? That's an easy answer, I'm taking Boba.
So Boba has out classed 2, 30 point shooters who use to be staples in their own respective faction. I can do this all day for you (Cad, Dash, Carth, etc.) in comparisons. Boba Fett outclasses every shooter. He needs to be changed, simple as that. TINT, I respect you as a player, but I feel you fanboyed on designing Fett, and your love for the character is blinding you to what the design does to the game. So when you say Boba isn't the problem, while I respect you as a player, your comments on this piece do not carry that much weight, at least with me. I agree that there are multiple issues that need to be addressed and that Boba isn't the sole issue. To answer Deri earlier, when he asked how far do we peel back the onion? We peel it back as far as we can in hopes of something more pleasant.
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This isn't a slight to the Vset designers--a lot of really brilliant pieces came out in V8--but I still think that Boba AfH is a bad design. An excellent idea, just with suboptimal execution.
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I love the idea of wrist cable and bait and switch on BAFH. I think, were I looking at him w/o a point cost, I would love the piece. In my view, what makes the piece is his tech; he has loads of it, and it all works well together. I just think that him being 50 points is a step over the line. Again, if he were 62-65 points, I think he'd be an iconic unit and a masterpiece.
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fingersandteeth wrote:Yeah, well, boba while strong and totally outclasses Cad, he isn't really the problem.
So how far do we peel the onion?
wow...... so a piece that totally outclasses Cad is not a problem... interesting considering most people use Cad as the piece against which shooters are measured. I read your post and like I said earlier there is no fixing the inherent issue with high activations and act control. Outside of banning act control obviously. if no one wants to go that route, which I know they don't, then the only solution is to do some of the things that have been mentioned before: 1. make melee more defensive--already happening 2. give melee more speed--- shooters can shoot from any distance, only makes sense to make melee fast enough to close the gap. 3. more mass damage dealers with higher hitpoints--- no I am not talking about strafe or galloping I am talking about force users with 90-110 hitpoints with stuff like force whirlwind, heck even chain lightning on another piece would help. as long as act control exists people will try to abuse it, simple as that, that's why talking about 3 pt. mouse droids is like pissing in the wind. Changing the mouse droid to having the Tiny S.A would help a lot the squad that won gencon will be just as effective with the change to mouse droids because it will still be the same exact squad. Now changing boba would be effective at trimming that squads effectiveness.
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donnyrides wrote:
Sorry,. Please don't let me interrupt the riveting "Duck season! Rabbit Season!" Boba arguing.
Hilarious! and so right! if fact it should be Imperial Governor season. open season, blast that MO-FO with the biggest BAN HAMMER we can find
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jak wrote:donnyrides wrote:
Sorry,. Please don't let me interrupt the riveting "Duck season! Rabbit Season!" Boba arguing.
Hilarious! and so right! This is why all of these conversations ultimately devolve into shouting matches. I and others have shown exactly how BAFH is broken, instead of saying, ''okay, I see your point,'' the response is either, ''LALALA nope! not broken! I can't hear you! Wait six months to find out how we're going to fix it!!'' or this unproductive nonsense. The Imp. Governor is broken, pretty much everyone knows that now, and he's going to be taken care of. The reason BAFH has become the topic of coversation is exactly because of this -- despite the GenCon evidence, despite pairing him up against other pieces in the same price range, there are still people who insist that he is just as good as Han Solo, Galactic Hero.
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It seems a few people aren't understanding what me and others like theHutts are saying. the difference between Boba and Cad being played comes down to what is dominating the meta at the moment. If the meta was full of rock squads, Cad Bane would take Boba's place in double swap. The reason Boba saw so much time on the tables this year is because he has Accurate shot and tripple attack, so he can take out opponents tech/commanders/swarms. Cad Bane isn't as good at doing that as Boba is. And comparing 50pt boba to 30ish pt shooters? really?! that isn't even a fair comparison. Boba was costed aggressively, but he needs to be compared to people in the 50pt range. Stop with the silly comparisons to Atton and Rex. Whats next, comparing boba to 12pt Klat Assassins? Totally different pieces with different utilities. Boba requires support just like pretty much anyone else in the game to be good. Boba is very powerful, no doubt about it. I just don't think a lot of the people complaining about him realize that he's only as good as the squad around him, and unfortunately since he's Fringe, it opens the door for many abusable support options. In the Double Swap squad, Boba isn't the issue, instead it is the mouse dump, the activation control and the init control that make Boba so good. If Boba doesn't have Thrawn, he's not nearly as good or effective. The whole rage against Boba seems misplaced to me. I'm not saying Boba isn't good. He is probably the best shooter in the 50-60pt range for this meta right now. That is the point I'm trying to make. People like me and others debating Boba vs Cad Bane are merely trying to point out that in different meta's, you will see people choose one over the other. Each has their strengths, its just boba's are more useful right now. If the meta becomes more rock squad heavy next year, I'd bet we see double swap squads replace Boba with Cad.
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first thing 30 pt pieces were brought up to show that ya 17 points I will pay that for boba because he is so good. I think you missed the point. it takes away from squad building because who needs atton even in the 30s when boba is so good?
rock squad what is that? do we have those? maybe one or two. GOWK what is he considered, rock? caedus, what is he, rock? I don't really understand these terms so those questions are actually real. if boba is beating those squads and they are rock squads, why use cad when boba stl beats those and also had a much easier time against tech squads?
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Darth_Reignir wrote:jak wrote:donnyrides wrote:
Sorry,. Please don't let me interrupt the riveting "Duck season! Rabbit Season!" Boba arguing.
Hilarious! and so right! This is why all of these conversations ultimately devolve into shouting matches. I and others have shown exactly how BAFH is broken, instead of saying, ''okay, I see your point,'' the response is either, ''LALALA nope! not broken! I can't hear you! Wait six months to find out how we're going to fix it!!'' or this unproductive nonsense. The Imp. Governor is broken, pretty much everyone knows that now, and he's going to be taken care of. The reason BAFH has become the topic of coversation is exactly because of this -- despite the GenCon evidence, despite pairing him up against other pieces in the same price range, there are still people who insist that he is just as good as Han Solo, Galactic Hero. No, the reason these devolve into shouting matches is both sides believe they are right. Your opinion is just as valid as others. A large reason I have stepped back is because the encouraged such thinking, which wasn't healthy for me.
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