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Darth_Reignir wrote:juice man wrote:CorranHornsux123 wrote:jak wrote:[quote=FlyingArrow] The balance team is to balance the competitive game. So by the way you made that sound is that none cares about competive play if they dont like it they can just the tourney scene? Really? Then lets get get a group of CASUAL players to be a balance team for us it will in no effect the Tourney scene and we casual players can have what we want This is called "house rules". Everybody has this already. Our group house rules regularly. When Jack or I want to test a competitive squad, we let the others know ahead of time, so they can bring a competitive squad also. But this sort of mindset is what keeps the fence between the two types of gamers in place. There are obviously ways to bend the rules to ones' advantage, that, as a casual player who wants and had tried to be involved in the tournament scene, says, "Why did I just drive 3 hours both ways to watch someone whittle down the clock with his 13 mouse droids?" I get what you're saying, that as casual players, we can homerule everything, and that's true and fair. But we as casuals also need a higher authority to summon in order to validate the decision, and that falls on the designers. If the situation ultimately boils down to, "I am going to play this, despite homerules, or I simply won't play," well, that's the quickest way to disintegrate a playgroup -- IE, what happened to the 15-strong Quad Cities scene. So what we're saying is that we do get it, but we need help - help from you. The second problem is that these cheesy rule-bending scenarios that are currently in discussion, as I said in my first paragraph, prevents a lot of us from entering the tournament scene. It sucks to see, "Well that's too bad, play casual," because we desperately want to be part of the bigger community. But it feels like we're berated for not wanting to tolerate 13 mouse droids, double swap, etc. Yeah, OK. Bolded made me laugh.
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juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Double Swap and 13 mouse droids -- it's what the wotc team envisioned.
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juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Lord Krayt transferring essence into force spirits. That's clear-cut, precisely how it should work.
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juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Locking doors and have CEs go through them, as happened to me and another friend at the 2013 WI regional. Obviously booming voice goes through a closed door.
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Oh, that's the issue with the Spirits are living? I wondered why someone was making a fuss about it. I don't exactly see the problem, either.
And Booming Voice enhanced CE's don't directly go through doors. Though you can count around them, pretty much infinitely. Could've been a bad ruling.
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Sithborg wrote:Oh, that's the issue with the Spirits are living? I wondered why someone was making a fuss about it. I don't exactly see the problem, either. How is a dead guy a living target? I feel like, in order to justify that, you really need to delve into the lore and say, The Force is living, it surrounds us, penetrates us...
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Sithborg wrote:Oh, that's the issue with the Spirits are living? I wondered why someone was making a fuss about it. I don't exactly see the problem, either. How is a dead guy a living target? I feel like, in order to justify that, you really need to delve into the lore and say, The Force is living, it surrounds us, penetrates us... Lore means squat to the rules. I know it bugs a lot of people, but you cannot make rulings based on the lore. The personae rulings and who has a lightaber are really, really bad rules, from a rules perspective. So, does a Spirit have Droid or Mounted Weapon? If not, then they are living characters. Very simple.
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Sithborg wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:Sithborg wrote:Oh, that's the issue with the Spirits are living? I wondered why someone was making a fuss about it. I don't exactly see the problem, either. How is a dead guy a living target? I feel like, in order to justify that, you really need to delve into the lore and say, The Force is living, it surrounds us, penetrates us... Lore means squat to the rules. I know it bugs a lot of people, but you cannot make rulings based on the lore. The personae rulings and who has a lightaber are really, really bad rules, from a rules perspective. So, does a Spirit have Droid or Mounted Weapon? If not, then they are living characters. Very simple. I'm not saying it should be based on the lore. I am saying the lore lends credibility to the argument that it should be ruled that way, as the lore says that the Force is living. But a Force Spirit isn't a living target. You may think it is very simple, but it is a reductive argument to the issue of, "is a Force Spirit living?" But, let's not derail the entire thread. My overall point, with regards to someone laughing at me, was that there are clearly rule-bending tactics, (like whittling down the clock -- that happened too) that tournament plays use that ostracize, whether intentional or not, casual players who want to get involved with the tournament scene.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Locking doors and have CEs go through them, as happened to me and another friend at the 2013 WI regional. Obviously booming voice goes through a closed door. This happens when both people aren't paying attention. First game at GenCon, Tim swapped with no line to Mouse/Commander, I saw that, pointed out he couldn't do that. He more or less slapped his head and lost one swap. (perhaps screwing him up enough for me to claw out a win.)
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Darth_Reignir wrote:juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Double Swap and 13 mouse droids -- it's what the wotc team envisioned. This is "cheesy". WotC did leave us with 2pt. mice and single swap.
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juice man wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Double Swap and 13 mouse droids -- it's what the wotc team envisioned. This is "cheesy". WotC did leave us with 2pt. mice and single swap. And we all know that WotC wasn't perfect. Yet here we are, holding their precedent as if it were set in stone.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
But, let's not derail the entire thread. My overall point, with regards to someone laughing at me, was that there are clearly rule-bending tactics, (like whittling down the clock -- that happened too) that tournament plays use that ostracize, whether intentional or not, casual players who want to get involved with the tournament scene.
Not at you. At the word "cheesy" in use about Mice Droids. Its funny. (mice like cheese)
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juice man wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:
But, let's not derail the entire thread. My overall point, with regards to someone laughing at me, was that there are clearly rule-bending tactics, (like whittling down the clock -- that happened too) that tournament plays use that ostracize, whether intentional or not, casual players who want to get involved with the tournament scene.
Not at you. At the word "cheesy" in use about Mice Droids. Its funny. (mice like cheese) Fair, I apologize.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:
I'm not saying it should be based on the lore. I am saying the lore lends credibility to the argument that it should be ruled that way, as the lore says that the Force is living.
But a Force Spirit isn't a living target. You may think it is very simple, but it is a reductive argument to the issue of, "is a Force Spirit living?"
But, let's not derail the entire thread. My overall point, with regards to someone laughing at me, was that there are clearly rule-bending tactics, (like whittling down the clock -- that happened too) that tournament plays use that ostracize, whether intentional or not, casual players who want to get involved with the tournament scene.
Except, by the rules of the game, it is a living character. Just because you didn't think real hard about it, or it is a case that rarely matters, doesn't change the fact that they have ALWAYS been living. And honestly, these corner cases are EXACTLY why the rules cannot be ruled democratically. There are ton of little corner cases, that if changed, create an impossible situation of exception based ruling. Do you really want a bunch of Bombad Gungan type rulings?
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juice man wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:juice man wrote:Yeah, OK.
Bolded made me laugh. Double Swap and 13 mouse droids -- it's what the wotc team envisioned. This is "cheesy". WotC did leave us with 2pt. mice and single swap. They also gave us double swap. It's just (probably) not competitive. At least no one thought it seemed good enough to bother trying it.
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Sithborg wrote:Darth_Reignir wrote:
I'm not saying it should be based on the lore. I am saying the lore lends credibility to the argument that it should be ruled that way, as the lore says that the Force is living.
But a Force Spirit isn't a living target. You may think it is very simple, but it is a reductive argument to the issue of, "is a Force Spirit living?"
But, let's not derail the entire thread. My overall point, with regards to someone laughing at me, was that there are clearly rule-bending tactics, (like whittling down the clock -- that happened too) that tournament plays use that ostracize, whether intentional or not, casual players who want to get involved with the tournament scene.
Except, by the rules of the game, it is a living character. Just because you didn't think real hard about it, or it is a case that rarely matters, doesn't change the fact that they have ALWAYS been living. And honestly, these corner cases are EXACTLY why the rules cannot be ruled democratically. There are ton of little corner cases, that if changed, create an impossible situation of exception based ruling. Do you really want a bunch of Bombad Gungan type rulings? You seem to think it would be a problem to patch holes in the ship because of the precedent. I think it makes the most sense. I would point out that we're a community, but let's face it, we're not. You guys are in charge and we don't get a say. So, let me instead say that YOU have the power to change these silly squads that really should never have been a thing in the game. And really, Spirit shouldn't have; neither double swap; neither MSD spam.
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There was a double transfer essence squad a while back with Exar and Sly moore. It functioned similarly to the Krayt squad that appeared in regionals.
the 50/50 nature of it takes it out of competitive play.
Obviously, free rerolls and needing below a 13 to fail helps significantly.
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So, you would rather have a bunch of rulings that, when asked why, the answer is "because". Rather than being able to explain logically why something works the way it does?
And let's be clear. I'm not in charge of anything anymore. Dave and the proofreading guys are the main ones behind the rules and stuff right now.
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Sithborg wrote:So, you would rather have a bunch of rulings that, when asked why, the answer is "because". Rather than being able to explain logically why something works the way it does?
And let's be clear. I'm not in charge of anything anymore. Dave and the proofreading guys are the main ones behind the rules and stuff right now. You may not officially be in anthing, but yes, let's be clear: you obviously have sway, and you're the rules guy; people still defer to you. Would I rather have that? Absolutely yes. Look where, "logic," has gotten us in the game. As far as I am concerned, this is the worst state the game has been in; anything from here is up. But if anyone is giving you "because," as an answer, they are idiots. "Why can't Krayt transfer into a Force Spirit?" Because it's dead., "yeah but -- He's dead. He isn't living. There's nothing for him to transfer into, it's just thin air.
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Darth_Reignir wrote:Sithborg wrote:So, you would rather have a bunch of rulings that, when asked why, the answer is "because". Rather than being able to explain logically why something works the way it does?
And let's be clear. I'm not in charge of anything anymore. Dave and the proofreading guys are the main ones behind the rules and stuff right now. You may not officially be in anthing, but yes, let's be clear: you obviously have sway, and you're the rules guy; people still defer to you. Would I rather have that? Absolutely yes. Look where, "logic," has gotten us in the game. As far as I am concerned, this is the worst state the game has been in; anything from here is up. And once again, you are conflating design with the rules.
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