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jak wrote:that may be the intent  but that's not how it reads  I'm with you jak, the way it reads you would think that the opponents init roll becomes a 1 BEFORE Sense The Force is able to steal your init. That is the way it reads, and that's probably why no one has ever packed a MTB into their build before. If this truly works the way Jason played it, I would love to understand why it works that way.
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theultrastar wrote:jak wrote:that may be the intent but that's not how it reads I'm with you jak, the way it reads you would think that the opponents init roll becomes a 1 BEFORE Sense The Force is able to steal your init. That is the way it reads, and that's probably why no one has ever packed a MTB into their build before. If this truly works the way Jason played it, I would love to understand why it works that way. I wish it worked that way as it would be another counter to MTB.
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From this thread that TJ kindly linked to in the thread about STF vs STF Scott says Sithborg wrote:It's going to be once you figure out your final roll. Modifiers, will still apply to the applicable player, but you will see what you rolled first. Sithborg wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:In other words, you're switching dice rolls, not switching initiatives. Is that accurate? Not the final initiative check, no. Seeing that Tactics Broker is a modifier, it would apply after you switch rolls, just like tactician, or watch circle, or triumvirate, etc
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That clears it up nicely. Thanks!
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Honestly, this is what happens often. People will self-police and not play squads like reserve squad in question. No need to make a blanket change that honestly is never a problem until now. If from now on we see tournaments where there is continually large abusable reserve squads, then maybe it will need to be looked at.
Honestly, this squad and others like it (I'd venture to guess,) have been build but not played by a great many number of people. I build one long ago with Ki-Adi Mundi also with Anticipation for yet another roll. The fact is, if you play this squad and do not get the rolls (especially early) it is not even close to a top tier squad (ask Brad Phillips who played one and lost most every match even when he did make the rolls)
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AceAce wrote:Honestly, this is what happens often. People will self-police and not play squads like reserve squad in question. No need to make a blanket change that honestly is never a problem until now. If from now on we see tournaments where there is continually large abusable reserve squads, then maybe it will need to be looked at.
Honestly, this squad and others like it (I'd venture to guess,) have been build but not played by a great many number of people. I build one long ago with Ki-Adi Mundi also with Anticipation for yet another roll. The fact is, if you play this squad and do not get the rolls (especially early) it is not even close to a top tier squad (ask Brad Phillips who played one and lost most every match even when he did make the rolls) Agree 100%. I've ran every version of Republic Reserves imaginable. From Yoda of Geonosis, to Supreme Palps, to Kazdan, to Pong, to Clobot, to the Vizor reserves piece. Some games I hit it early, and it becomes a steam engine. Other times it gets destroyed. Lord Vader/Jarael kill any reserves squad tho. Because if you don't hit it in round 1, one of your reserves pieces is going down.
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Okay, I'm going to throw this out there again. Before I do, let me make clear that I do not think Reserve squads - as of now - are a problem. But, what would you guys think if we just offset Pong's numbers from Kazdan's?
It would make Reserves MUCH more likely, but by spreading them out, you actually can't juice up your squad as quickly.
Imagine the squad with no init control (ignore Lobot as well) - 20% chance of of Reserves, but 60 pts worth when you do. Offset the numbers, you get a 40% chance of Reserves, but only 30 pts. On average, they have the same effect - if a game somehow goes for 20 rounds, and you roll each number from 1 to 20 once each, you'll get 240 pts of reinforcements either way.
So, they're clearly equal. BUT, when you add init control, the 20% chance for 60 pts is much better, because despite the lower percentage chance, you're able to boost the chance more.
So, by changing Pong's numbers from 5/10/15/20 to 4/9/14/19, the squad is mellowed out, and becomes less swingy, I think. Reserves are more constant, but less powerful when they do happen, and don't get quite as much help from init control.
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CorellianComedian wrote:Okay, I'm going to throw this out there again. Before I do, let me make clear that I do not think Reserve squads - as of now - are a problem. But, what would you guys think if we just offset Pong's numbers from Kazdan's?
It would make Reserves MUCH more likely, but by spreading them out, you actually can't juice up your squad as quickly.
Imagine the squad with no init control (ignore Lobot as well) - 20% chance of of Reserves, but 60 pts worth when you do. Offset the numbers, you get a 40% chance of Reserves, but only 30 pts. On average, they have the same effect - if a game somehow goes for 20 rounds, and you roll each number from 1 to 20 once each, you'll get 240 pts of reinforcements either way.
So, they're clearly equal. BUT, when you add init control, the 20% chance for 60 pts is much better, because despite the lower percentage chance, you're able to boost the chance more.
So, by changing Pong's numbers from 5/10/15/20 to 4/9/14/19, the squad is mellowed out, and becomes less swingy, I think. Reserves are more constant, but less powerful when they do happen, and don't get quite as much help from init control. messed up thought process my bad lol.
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CorellianComedian wrote:Okay, I'm going to throw this out there again. Before I do, let me make clear that I do not think Reserve squads - as of now - are a problem. But, what would you guys think if we just offset Pong's numbers from Kazdan's?
It would make Reserves MUCH more likely, but by spreading them out, you actually can't juice up your squad as quickly.
Imagine the squad with no init control (ignore Lobot as well) - 20% chance of of Reserves, but 60 pts worth when you do. Offset the numbers, you get a 40% chance of Reserves, but only 30 pts. On average, they have the same effect - if a game somehow goes for 20 rounds, and you roll each number from 1 to 20 once each, you'll get 240 pts of reinforcements either way.
So, they're clearly equal. BUT, when you add init control, the 20% chance for 60 pts is much better, because despite the lower percentage chance, you're able to boost the chance more.
So, by changing Pong's numbers from 5/10/15/20 to 4/9/14/19, the squad is mellowed out, and becomes less swingy, I think. Reserves are more constant, but less powerful when they do happen, and don't get quite as much help from init control. This sounds like it could be a good idea. I'd think that it would need to be playtested thoroughly just to make sure, but keeps the power without the massive power swing.
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There is s certain amount of player skill to this whole issue. Jason is in stroke and has been for ages. He's cleaned up many regionals with an astounding variety of squads. He builds them, he knows how to play them and he knows how to play against other squad types' he's a bit Zen with mini's currently.
That is something that has to be kept in mind.
You can hard nerf reserves squads with the NR, and with t1 squads, but no-one was expecting this squad and so it caught people off guard.
Saying that, 60 points of reserves on any roll just shouldn't happen, it's a massively unbalancing event in a game where a 20 point drop of characters can seal games.
The simplest solution is to floor rule that reserves don't stack on a roll. You have to pick one, still massive but not totally stupid.
As for Pong himself, I was involved in the design and tried to insist that he take sense the future only. Then You have to pay for anticipation and it limits the squad potential. As it is, pong is likely a good example that the size of sets should consistently be small. He got one test and it was far from optimized. A few pages of discussion that missed the elephant in the room and you have a synergy that just should not be.
i may have overlooked the fact that his rival did not exclude Kazdan and at that time the focus was more on excluding Gowk et al.,
Still , doesn't really excuse the mistake and I'm sorry to be responsible for the error.
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fingersandteeth wrote:There is s certain amount of player skill to this whole issue. Jason is in stroke and has been for ages. He's cleaned up many regionals with an astounding variety of squads. He builds them, he knows how to play them and he knows how to play against other squad types' he's a bit Zen with mini's currently.
That is something that has to be kept in mind.
You can hard nerf reserves squads with the NR, and with t1 squads, but no-one was expecting this squad and so it caught people off guard.
Saying that, 60 points of reserves on any roll just shouldn't happen, it's a massively unbalancing event in a game where a 20 point drop of characters can seal games.
The simplest solution is to floor rule that reserves don't stack on a roll. You have to pick one, still massive but not totally stupid.
As for Pong himself, I was involved in the design and tried to insist that he take sense the future only. Then You have to pay for anticipation and it limits the squad potential. As it is, pong is likely a good example that the size of sets should consistently be small. He got one test and it was far from optimized. A few pages of discussion that missed the elephant in the room and you have a synergy that just should not be.
i may have overlooked the fact that his rival did not exclude Kazdan and at that time the focus was more on excluding Gowk et al.,
Still , doesn't really excuse the mistake and I'm sorry to be responsible for the error.
+1  excellent post and very well said.
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fingersandteeth wrote:
The simplest solution is to floor rule that reserves don't stack on a roll. You have to pick one, still massive but not totally stupid.
While I don't necessarily think reserves squads are a problem, this would be a very easy, elegant solution. Certainly something for the balance committee to look at after Gencon.
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fingersandteeth wrote: he's a bit Zen with mini's currently.
Thanks Deri. Coming from you, that is quite a compliment.
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juice man wrote:Hard to go to tourneys and GenCon and not make friends. Yes they have an "agenda" - publicly stated.
Etienne, you are now "elite" Whoo-Hoo. Congratulations​ FINALLY!!!!  Don't worry Juice man, your time may yet come. 
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fingersandteeth wrote:There is s certain amount of player skill to this whole issue. Jason is in stroke and has been for ages. He's cleaned up many regionals with an astounding variety of squads. He builds them, he knows how to play them and he knows how to play against other squad types' he's a bit Zen with mini's currently.
That is something that has to be kept in mind.
You can hard nerf reserves squads with the NR, and with t1 squads, but no-one was expecting this squad and so it caught people off guard.
Saying that, 60 points of reserves on any roll just shouldn't happen, it's a massively unbalancing event in a game where a 20 point drop of characters can seal games.
The simplest solution is to floor rule that reserves don't stack on a roll. You have to pick one, still massive but not totally stupid.
As for Pong himself, I was involved in the design and tried to insist that he take sense the future only. Then You have to pay for anticipation and it limits the squad potential. As it is, pong is likely a good example that the size of sets should consistently be small. He got one test and it was far from optimized. A few pages of discussion that missed the elephant in the room and you have a synergy that just should not be.
i may have overlooked the fact that his rival did not exclude Kazdan and at that time the focus was more on excluding Gowk et al.,
Still , doesn't really excuse the mistake and I'm sorry to be responsible for the error.
I agree 100% player skill has to be taken into account. A brand new character playing Black and Blue will more than likely struggle against a Skilled player playing something against them. I still don't think the combo is insanely broken. All you have to do is kill Pong, and the squad is useless. I guess maybe its easier said than done? Or maybe people just didn't run deep strike squads? Because as I have said, Lord Vader WRECKS this squad. I'd almost say VoL would beat it good, b/c of surprise move and Surprise attack. I think NR can take care of it pretty easy. Sith don't have a shot really. Mace Windu would love the chance to be dropped off against a group of characters just sitting right next to each other. But, I do think to prevent any further.... Overlooks, lol, maybe a floor rule should be initiated that nerf them, Heavens forbid designers on a whole set forget about what numbers reserves can be rolled on, and what pieces can be used while building a squad. And hey, if you guys want to prevent future slip ups, and "under the radar" pieces getting through without seeing their interactions, put me and Death's Baine on the PT committee, and I promise, nothing like this would ever.... Ever get over looked. Maybe thats to cocky, Or, maybe, I am just confident in our abilities to look at a faction, and understand the interactions within it. Maybe we should campaign for it like an Election BOI. 2018! Shmi15/Death's Baine. " Making SWM Great Again"
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fingersandteeth wrote: Saying that, 60 points of reserves on any roll just shouldn't happen, it's a massively unbalancing event in a game where a 20 point drop of characters can seal games.
Big +1. Thank you for being the voice or reason Deri!
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fingersandteeth wrote: The simplest solution is to floor rule that reserves don't stack on a roll. You have to pick one, still massive but not totally stupid. +1.
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shmi15 wrote:fingersandteeth wrote:There is s certain amount of player skill to this whole issue. Jason is in stroke and has been for ages. He's cleaned up many regionals with an astounding variety of squads. He builds them, he knows how to play them and he knows how to play against other squad types' he's a bit Zen with mini's currently.
That is something that has to be kept in mind.
You can hard nerf reserves squads with the NR, and with t1 squads, but no-one was expecting this squad and so it caught people off guard.
Saying that, 60 points of reserves on any roll just shouldn't happen, it's a massively unbalancing event in a game where a 20 point drop of characters can seal games.
The simplest solution is to floor rule that reserves don't stack on a roll. You have to pick one, still massive but not totally stupid.
As for Pong himself, I was involved in the design and tried to insist that he take sense the future only. Then You have to pay for anticipation and it limits the squad potential. As it is, pong is likely a good example that the size of sets should consistently be small. He got one test and it was far from optimized. A few pages of discussion that missed the elephant in the room and you have a synergy that just should not be.
i may have overlooked the fact that his rival did not exclude Kazdan and at that time the focus was more on excluding Gowk et al.,
Still , doesn't really excuse the mistake and I'm sorry to be responsible for the error.
I agree 100% player skill has to be taken into account. A brand new character playing Black and Blue will more than likely struggle against a Skilled player playing something against them. I still don't think the combo is insanely broken. All you have to do is kill Pong, and the squad is useless. I guess maybe its easier said than done? Or maybe people just didn't run deep strike squads? Because as I have said, Lord Vader WRECKS this squad. I'd almost say VoL would beat it good, b/c of surprise move and Surprise attack. I think NR can take care of it pretty easy. Sith don't have a shot really. Mace Windu would love the chance to be dropped off against a group of characters just sitting right next to each other. But, I do think to prevent any further.... Overlooks, lol, maybe a floor rule should be initiated that nerf them, Heavens forbid designers on a whole set forget about what numbers reserves can be rolled on, and what pieces can be used while building a squad. And hey, if you guys want to prevent future slip ups, and "under the radar" pieces getting through without seeing their interactions, put me and Death's Baine on the PT committee, and I promise, nothing like this would ever.... Ever get over looked. Maybe thats to cocky, Or, maybe, I am just confident in our abilities to look at a faction, and understand the interactions within it. Maybe we should campaign for it like an Election BOI. 2018! Shmi15/Death's Baine. " Making SWM Great Again" are you president and me vice president or what?
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I feel like any good swap squad would clean house with this. Sith Revan, Panaka deepstrike, or Thrawn would make short work of this.
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fingersandteeth wrote: He got one test and it was far from optimized. A few pages of discussion that missed the elephant in the room and you have a synergy that just should not be.
Well this seems to be the biggest problem of all... I have done little play testing in my day but am signed up for next set. It seems more play testing is a more real concern than we (or at least I) give it credit.
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