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SuperYodaMan
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:22:40 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/27/2010
Posts: 317
Location: Minnesota, USA
What I just don't understand is why people are concerned about money, the cards being sold, etc. From what I can gather, the V-Sets are solely intellectual property available to the public for free and are not intended to generate any revenue. Since the V-Sets are not being sold (and I don't think are intended to be sold) and are public material, there shouldn't be any problem whatsoever with copyright infringements or anything else like that. Now, if the V-Sets were to become exclusive to SWMGamers.com (or are they, since they have been removed from BlooMilk?), then I can see how a potential problem could arise; the sets are exclusive to one website, so some of the traffic generated by that website is only coming to the site for the V-Sets and, since traffic generates revenue because of the ads on the site, then it can be argued (in a very indirect way that really doesn't even seem valid) that the V-Sets themselves were generating revenue. In this instance, any revenue generated would still only be a byproduct of the V-Sets, not from selling or distributing the V-Sets themselves (which would still be intellectual property that is free to the public), so I still don't see how there are any legal issues here.

Someone please enlighten me if I'm wrong.
OSUcowpoke
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:33:35 AM
Rank: Octuptarra Droid
Groups: Member

Joined: 1/6/2010
Posts: 31
SuperYodaMan wrote:
Now, if the V-Sets were to become exclusive to SWMGamers.com (or are they, since they have been removed from BlooMilk?)


they are not exclusive to SWMGamers they are on other sites such as the Holocron...they were only removed from Bloomilk
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:51:23 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
DarthJak wrote:

the $20 set of cards is required for tournaments, and GenCon.
the fear is that the downloaded cards could be altered to allow a player to cheat


This is not true. Everyone knows the stats, especially at a tournament.

EDIT: Correction. This may be true. Currently undecided.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:00:23 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
dnemiller wrote:
Since none of you can grasp Civil liability or the laws surrounding it, I guess you cannot understand why I would find it necessary to talk to someone I trust abotu stuff posted here.


I kept waiting for someone else to either ask about this or answer it... but I don't understand how BlooMilk could cause Dean or the Vsets any new problems.

I'm not even sure how the copyrights (if any) would be handled. Are the Vsets going to be in the public domain? Copyright owned by Lucas? By Gamers? Collectively by the committee?

What is the "it's been taken care of" arrangement between Gamers and Lucas? Just an agreement to turn a blind eye, but they'll sue you when they see someone making money off of it? Or is there a formal agreement to allow the Vsets? What about WotC and the game mechanics?

I'm just full of questions - is there a link to a long discussion that answers these questions?
jedispyder
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:02:42 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/27/2008
Posts: 871
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Right now we're thinking of having the "official" set of cards required for major tournaments such as GenCon and Regionals. We haven't decided 100% on whether to do it or not (not everyone is 100% happy with the idea to do it) but it was brought up in a podcast couple weeks back. My idea is to just make it required for the Judges to have an official card set. But there is a large worry about people altering the work and printing it out (one solution is to watermark the cards so they can't be changed easily).
DarthJak
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:22:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/30/2008
Posts: 1,290
Location: Stow Ohio, just north of Dantooine (vacay on Ando)
FlyingArrow wrote:
DarthJak wrote:

the $20 set of cards is required for tournaments, and GenCon.
the fear is that the downloaded cards could be altered to allow a player to cheat


This is not true. Everyone knows the stats, especially at a tournament.



according to the SHNN show of August 19th

it IS true
Disturbed1
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:50:52 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 2/27/2009
Posts: 205
Location: Southern Illinois
I dont see a difference in the chance of someone altering the V-set cards and someone altering the official wotc cards.

So, unless they are going to change the floor rules to 'only official cards', then I dont see why it would be needed for the v-set.
jedispyder
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:24:53 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/27/2008
Posts: 871
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Disturbed1 wrote:
So, unless they are going to change the floor rules to 'only official cards', then I dont see why it would be needed for the v-set.

We are updating the Floor Rules to include information on the V-Set, I'm sure that'll be released when the V-Set is released so everyone is updated on it.
NickName
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:27:35 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/5/2009
Posts: 190
DarthJak wrote:

according to the SHNN show of August 19th

it IS true


This was Dean's opinion at that moment in time. I happen to think that the explanation he laid out there is inaccurate. That's my opinion. His opinion at that moment in time is subject to change and may not reflect the final solution if Dean becomes convinced his opinion at that moment wasn't accurate through discussions with the rest of the major contributors (which wouldn't include me, just for clarity) to the V-Sets.
NickName
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:37:33 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 6/5/2009
Posts: 190
FlyingArrow wrote:

I kept waiting for someone else to either ask about this or answer it... but I don't understand how BlooMilk could cause Dean or the Vsets any new problems.


Quite simply, it won't. The explanation given is suspect. Just boil it down to Dean being frustrated with various aspects of BlooMilk. Getting into the particulars isn't really productive.

Quote:
I'm not even sure how the copyrights (if any) would be handled. Are the Vsets going to be in the public domain? Copyright owned by Lucas? By Gamers? Collectively by the committee?


Anything Star Wars is owned by LFL. The game mechanics for SWM are owned by WotC, however you can't copyright specific game rules so there's a lot less exposure to WotC. But basically, LFL could shut down almost anything SW related if they choose to. That goes for VASSAL, BlooMilk, Gamers, TheForce.net and so on. Simply the threat, whether it would stand up completely in court, would be enough to stop almost anyone.

Quote:
What is the "it's been taken care of" arrangement between Gamers and Lucas? Just an agreement to turn a blind eye, but they'll sue you when they see someone making money off of it? Or is there a formal agreement to allow the Vsets? What about WotC and the game mechanics?


Nothing's been "taken care of". Interpret that as "it's not worth worrying about." Basically, LFL has a clear track record of distinguishing "fan" content from "profit motive" and only really goes after the latter. The VSets should remain pretty clearly as fan content. So a copyright violation that is unlikely to be acted upon.
juice man
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:39:40 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 1/5/2009
Posts: 2,240
Location: Akron Ohio, just south of dantooine.
Just out of curiosity, has there been a case of somebody altering cards? At a major tourny?
jedispyder
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:49:56 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/27/2008
Posts: 871
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Not with WotC cards, that's pretty difficult since you need the official card (a printout won't work). Yet when you get into the V-Set and not everyone knowing all the stats it's possible that someone could alter it and their opponent (not knowing the set at all) wouldn't catch the change. That's why for major tourneys the talk is to only use official cards, but as it's been stated that hasn't been set it stone right now. It's more of a preemptive strike right now.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:52:45 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
SuperYodaMan wrote:
What I just don't understand is why people are concerned about money, the cards being sold, etc. From what I can gather, the V-Sets are solely intellectual property available to the public for free and are not intended to generate any revenue. Since the V-Sets are not being sold (and I don't think are intended to be sold) and are public material, there shouldn't be any problem whatsoever with copyright infringements or anything else like that. Now, if the V-Sets were to become exclusive to SWMGamers.com (or are they, since they have been removed from BlooMilk?), then I can see how a potential problem could arise; the sets are exclusive to one website, so some of the traffic generated by that website is only coming to the site for the V-Sets and, since traffic generates revenue because of the ads on the site, then it can be argued (in a very indirect way that really doesn't even seem valid) that the V-Sets themselves were generating revenue. In this instance, any revenue generated would still only be a byproduct of the V-Sets, not from selling or distributing the V-Sets themselves (which would still be intellectual property that is free to the public), so I still don't see how there are any legal issues here.

Someone please enlighten me if I'm wrong.


That's not really how it works. Images, characters, artwork, pretty much EVERYTHING from the Star Wars universe are the property of LFL. Technically the squad builder on this website is copyright infringement. Every single fan-based Star Wars page using Star Wars logos without permission from LFL are committing copyright infringement, regardless of whether or not anyone is making any money off of it.

Now, LFL generally doesn't care about all that. They have bigger fish to fry so to speak than worrying about every website on the internet that uses their IP. But it's always a potential problem. As Lobostele has said, the 501st get away with it because of their charity work, and because LFL hasn't really had a reason yet to shut them down. But they very easily could be shut down. Shinja could get a cease and desist from LFL tomorrow telling him to remove all infringing material from Bloomilk.

The same thing goes for the v-sets. As long as the Rebel logo is on the Rebel cards, they are infringing on LFL's copyright. Now, LFL probably won't care; as I said, they pretty much never do. If they did care they probably would have done something by now. There is also pretty good precedent with the SWTCG v-sets (which LFL is very aware of and actually communicates with, and has no problem with).

However, LFL does tend to keep an eye on exactly how their IP is being used. They usually just don't mind how it's being used. That doesn't mean they don't care. For example, there are certain things that the SWTCG Players Committee has wanted to do that has been vetoed by LFL. If they had tried to do it anyway, they would probably have gotten that cease and desist, and then gotten sued into oblivion if they ignored that.

And that brings us to Dean's wary attitude towards sharing things with Bloomilk. It's possible for someone here to do something stupid with the v-sets that gets LFL's attention (like the SWTCG PC). Dean doesn't trust that Bloomlk will appropriately respond to a reaction like that from LFL. Lets say they create a v-set card that LFL doesn't like for some reason, and it got previewed on Bloomilk. LFL tells Dean that it has to be taken down. Dean tries to get Bloomilk to remove it, but they don't (this is far from unlikely, the Bloomilk higher-ups (especially Shinja) have been very hard from Dean to get a hold of). LFL notices that it's still up, and they now shut down the entire v-set operation.

That is why the v-set is only being shared with people and places that can be very fully trusted. It's NOT public IP, it's LFL's IP, and that HAS to be respected. Bloomilk as a whole has been less than respectful a number of times, so why should they be expected to be respectful when a problem DOES arise?
FlyingArrow
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 3:56:50 AM
Rank: Moderator
Groups: Member , Moderator

Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 8,428
NickName wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

I kept waiting for someone else to either ask about this or answer it... but I don't understand how BlooMilk could cause Dean or the Vsets any new problems.


Quite simply, it won't. The explanation given is suspect. Just boil it down to Dean being frustrated with various aspects of BlooMilk. Getting into the particulars isn't really productive.

Quote:
I'm not even sure how the copyrights (if any) would be handled. Are the Vsets going to be in the public domain? Copyright owned by Lucas? By Gamers? Collectively by the committee?


Anything Star Wars is owned by LFL. The game mechanics for SWM are owned by WotC, however you can't copyright specific game rules so there's a lot less exposure to WotC. But basically, LFL could shut down almost anything SW related if they choose to. That goes for VASSAL, BlooMilk, Gamers, TheForce.net and so on. Simply the threat, whether it would stand up completely in court, would be enough to stop almost anyone.

Quote:
What is the "it's been taken care of" arrangement between Gamers and Lucas? Just an agreement to turn a blind eye, but they'll sue you when they see someone making money off of it? Or is there a formal agreement to allow the Vsets? What about WotC and the game mechanics?


Nothing's been "taken care of". Interpret that as "it's not worth worrying about." Basically, LFL has a clear track record of distinguishing "fan" content from "profit motive" and only really goes after the latter. The VSets should remain pretty clearly as fan content. So a copyright violation that is unlikely to be acted upon.


NickName, does this accurately summarize what you're saying:

Legally speaking, the Vsets are fan content that we all assume LFL will ignore based on either their history of ignoring fan content, or possibly a verbal agreement from a rep at LFL. Because the Vsets are fan content without a valid copyright, there is no legal reason why BlooMilk couldn't put the Vsets up - assuming LFL continues to ignore them. BlooMilk refrains from doing so just to honor another's wishes. Putting the Vsets on BlooMilk would not change the status of the Vsets - they would still be fan content that LFL would ignore.

Did I misunderstand you?
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:01:37 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
FlyingArrow wrote:
NickName wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:

I kept waiting for someone else to either ask about this or answer it... but I don't understand how BlooMilk could cause Dean or the Vsets any new problems.


Quite simply, it won't. The explanation given is suspect. Just boil it down to Dean being frustrated with various aspects of BlooMilk. Getting into the particulars isn't really productive.

Quote:
I'm not even sure how the copyrights (if any) would be handled. Are the Vsets going to be in the public domain? Copyright owned by Lucas? By Gamers? Collectively by the committee?


Anything Star Wars is owned by LFL. The game mechanics for SWM are owned by WotC, however you can't copyright specific game rules so there's a lot less exposure to WotC. But basically, LFL could shut down almost anything SW related if they choose to. That goes for VASSAL, BlooMilk, Gamers, TheForce.net and so on. Simply the threat, whether it would stand up completely in court, would be enough to stop almost anyone.

Quote:
What is the "it's been taken care of" arrangement between Gamers and Lucas? Just an agreement to turn a blind eye, but they'll sue you when they see someone making money off of it? Or is there a formal agreement to allow the Vsets? What about WotC and the game mechanics?


Nothing's been "taken care of". Interpret that as "it's not worth worrying about." Basically, LFL has a clear track record of distinguishing "fan" content from "profit motive" and only really goes after the latter. The VSets should remain pretty clearly as fan content. So a copyright violation that is unlikely to be acted upon.


NickName, does this accurately summarize what you're saying:

Legally speaking, the Vsets are fan content that we all assume LFL will ignore based on either their history of ignoring fan content, or possibly a verbal agreement from a rep at LFL. Because the Vsets are fan content without a valid copyright, there is no legal reason why BlooMilk couldn't put the Vsets up - assuming LFL continues to ignore them. BlooMilk refrains from doing so just to honor another's wishes. Putting the Vsets on BlooMilk would not change the status of the Vsets - they would still be fan content that LFL would ignore.

Did I misunderstand you?


Generally that's a good summary, except that LFL doesn't ALWAYS ignore fan content. I don't know the exact details, but LFL has gotten involved at least once with the SWCCG v-sets, so we cannot assume that they won't get involved with our v-sets also. That's the real worry.
DarthJak
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:48:38 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/30/2008
Posts: 1,290
Location: Stow Ohio, just north of Dantooine (vacay on Ando)
[quote=Echo24
Dean tries to get Bloomilk to remove it, but they don't (this is far from unlikely, the Bloomilk higher-ups (especially Shinja) have been very hard from Dean to get a hold of). LFL notices that it's still up, and they now shut down the entire v-set operation.

quote]

Blink if shinja is soo hard to get a hold of, why did he take down the v stats when asked?
He knows what's going on, even if you don't see him on the threads.
Try giving him a call, works for me every time.
Echo24
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:50:26 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 9/30/2008
Posts: 1,288
DarthJak wrote:
Echo24 wrote:

Dean tries to get Bloomilk to remove it, but they don't (this is far from unlikely, the Bloomilk higher-ups (especially Shinja) have been very hard from Dean to get a hold of). LFL notices that it's still up, and they now shut down the entire v-set operation.



Blink if shinja is soo hard to get a hold of, why did he take down the v stats when asked?
He knows what's going on, even if you don't see him on the threads.
Try giving him a call, works for me every time.



I'm basing that off of what I've heard (and believe) from others. I've never personally tried to get in touch with shinja. I'm merely explaining the situation and the rationale behind it.
DarthJak
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:51:46 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
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Joined: 7/30/2008
Posts: 1,290
Location: Stow Ohio, just north of Dantooine (vacay on Ando)
sorry I'm a alien computerThumbDown
SuperYodaMan
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 4:57:28 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 7/27/2010
Posts: 317
Location: Minnesota, USA
DarthJak wrote:

Blink if shinja is soo hard to get a hold of, why did he take down the v stats when asked?
He knows what's going on, even if you don't see him on the threads.
Try giving him a call, works for me every time.


How can any of us call him when we don't have his phone number? I don't think the webmaster of any given website wants to give out his phone number, which is exactly why he only gave out his email address. The only way for non-administrators and non-moderators of the site to contact him right now is via BM or email.
jedispyder
Posted: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 5:01:03 AM
Rank: Advanced Bloo Milk Member
Groups: Member

Joined: 3/27/2008
Posts: 871
Location: Cincinnati, OH
I think the only reason Shinja was available to help out with the removal of the V-Set is because the proverbial * had hit the fan and many people had to let him know. At that point he had no choice but to help out. If Dean said before he tried to contact him and couldn't, I believe him. Others may not, but the one thing Dean isn't is a liar.

Edit: Removing a single letter is not enough. Please, keep the language clean.
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