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Neifi wrote:
Lastly, I agree on Mace. Powerful, yes; but with weaknesses and at a cost that is at least a bit self restrictive. One can also fairly quickly explain ways he is vulnerable if the person you are talking to is open-minded. (and definitely not a piece which needs to be cut from 200pt games - now 500 might make him more difficult though; not sure) I personally like it as he is a surmountable challenge without absolutely perfect play or such specific setups needed to win.
I don't understand where you're coming from with this? Mace is a strong follower, who can function well without much support; obviously pieces like R2-Doombot and GOWK help him out, but he's dangerous on his own. I think he's super strong at 150, where he's strong enough to stand up to the firepower of most 150 point squads. At 500 he's diluted, the other player can take him out pretty quickly if they consider him a major threat; which he arguably is with his high damage ceiling. The pieces that are most likely to cause difficulties in bigger games are arguably really good commanders/quasi-commanders like General Grievous Droid Army Commander. GGDAC is all but unplayable at 100 points, since he can only boost 43 points of droids, but at 500 points he's massively amplified; he's potentially boosting 443 points of droids with +4 attack, +4 defense, and twin attack, which is huge.
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kezzamachine wrote:Well, I kinda think Bastilla is as good for casual play as in anything, and for two reasons.
Firstly, I've sat down across the table from someone (Sharron) and we've both revealed our squads to which we've instantly realised that we just happened to pull out one squad that pretty much instantly beats the other. I forget the squads, but we could see without rolling a die that I was finished before I had begun. Gentlemen's agreement, we shook hands on that game before it started and both started looking for a new squad. If I recall correctly, we simply discussed what type of squad could I bring that would provide a better game for both of us, I found it, then we played.
Why is that good for the game and what the hell does it have to do wi' Bastilla? Well, with it not being competitive we both stood to lose out if the game wasn't going to benefit both of us. Why sit down for a fun hour-and-a-half game if its gonna be a total whitewash. We were able to discuss it, both the pieces involved, the synergy and tactics that would crop up and we, in effect, played a game in like about 4 minutes without rolly a die. We talked, we shared, we both grew in our understanding of the game and we moved on. Same deal goes for Bastilla. You show up to play against a mate, he looks to run Bastilla which will totally nerf your squad, so you talk about it, decide within minutes that its not gonna be fun, and then you either change one squad, both squads, or sub Bastilla for something else. No problem. You've grown in the game and shaken hands on it.
Secondly, if you are a fan of casual play, its quite likely you are a fan of the SW universe as a whole. You know that Bastilla is an uber character and now you get to play the role of the opponent. Lose yourself in the story. If you were in the story and you were going up against Bastilla, how would you cope? You don't have a time-limit because you're playing casual so go for it. Bastilla (and other uber-characters) excite the crap out of me because I read the stories. After reading the Thrawn Trilogy I fell in love wi' the uber-ness of Thrawn. Now when I play against him I think - 'oh crap, he's awesome' and I start thinking about if my opponent is trying to assess my strengths/abilities based on my culture's artworks or not.
Bastilla (and others) are great for the casual game because the casual game is - to some extent - about being in Star Wars. Her character was AWESOME and you have a chance to test yourself against that. That rules.
On a side note, I think that the Bastilla arguement is one that will be illucidated by Regionals. If she is too good, she will win half of the Regionals. She came out in December 2010 and we're yet to see her win any tournaments here in NZ. Wow very well put Kezz! I think many times people lose sight of the fact that this is Star Wars, and its great to throw yourself into the universe of Star Wars when you play! 
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TheHutts wrote:I don't understand where you're coming from with this? Mace is a strong follower, who can function well without much support; obviously pieces like R2-Doombot and GOWK help him out, but he's dangerous on his own. I think he's super strong at 150, where he's strong enough to stand up to the firepower of most 150 point squads. At 500 he's diluted, the other player can take him out pretty quickly if they consider him a major threat; which he arguably is with his high damage ceiling. Nah, its that follower aspect I was thinking of when thinking about him in a 500 squad. With that many additional points available, was thinking you might be able to easily beef him up with so many CEs he might go from strong but with holes and luck dependent to pure unstoppable beast. Maybe (and apparently) not though, as Republic is the faction I have admittedly paid the very least attention to - mainly only seeing the same pieces when I do see them, and not sure what all possibilities they might be able to unlock if allowed a full 500 (blame some of that one on Lucas and a little bit of personal stubbornness  ) Edit to say that is also of course dependent on if there is a CE limit in 500 or not. If so, he is quite likely cake...
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billiv15 wrote:FlyingArrow wrote:
I think she is significantly different from other gatekeepers.
I disagree. Your argument is highly flawed. You are using a method of higher number of squads being knocked out of competition, which is both inaccurate and a flawed methodology. This is an internet message board where we spout opinions, not a scientific research venue. There is no such thing as a 'flawed methodology' here. I think she is significantly different from other gatekeepers. This is my opinion using my own definition of significant. (There isn't a precise scientific definition for that word - fortunately, we're not in a scientific research venue.) In discussions, we are all entitled to our own opinions, but no - you are not entitled to dictate to me what my opinion is. Feel free to share your opinion. If you care enough to try understand my opinion better, feel free to ask me questions so I can explain it better. If you're just trying to win some argument, there's none to be had on this point. It's just a difference of opinions.
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The Casual Play Floor Rules for 2012 have just come out. Some rules of note:
Rule 702: List of Banned Characters for Casual Play
Any ones you like.
Rule 703: List of Legal Characters for Casual Play
Any ones you like.
Rule 704: Rule 704
There is no Rule 704
Awesome.
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billiv15 wrote:The assumption that she will always have ABM on is highly flawed. It isn't accurate. You are correct. Only 95% of the time from rounds 2-7, and only if you can't get to her to turn it off, and only if you have the same number of activations as the OR squad. Quote:Complaining isn't going to get you far, about all that does is make you feel better. Kinda doubt it. I bet this thread (and others like it) results in more counters to Bastila in future Vsets. It's clearly what the community is calling for, and the committee has been remarkably good at listening to the community. Even you, Bill. In fact, Vset3 itself introduced new Bastila counters, so clearly the complaints are heard. Quote:This is specifically at FlyingArrow - ... Do you really think we are going to issue an errata for casual play??? I never requested an errata and in fact said I do not want one. I want more and better counters (that blunt her, not negate her completely) - at least one in each faction. I do wish she were weaker to begin with, but that ship has sailed, and I do not want an errata. === Edited to reduce thread clutter.
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There are ways around Bastilla that are concepts that I want to see more of, getting around Bastilla being secondary. I think Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master's CE is an example of a CE that can be great fun, and the one time only CE's have real potential.
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And of course there will be more counters to Bastila. There will be more counters to EVERYTHING in the future. There will be more counters to tempo control, init control, high activations, LOW activations, movement breakers, everything. That has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. That has to do with the design process of a skirmish game. Counters are what make things interesting; otherwise there would just be one best strategy without any counters and it would win all the games and it wouldn't be fun.
Mod Edit: Removing this counting discussion, it is unproductive.
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I tried to run a simple YES/NO poll for BSJM, but Bloo woundn't let me. (A sign?) I am on the not perfect side. It's not just the CE nerfing, but an extra 10 dam for everybody.
@ kezz What is the map list for casual play?
EDIT Just looked at my comment. Boy, my wife would agree - I'm not perfect.
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Sorry can't quote on thios computer it is so slow...
Anyways to Bill, first off I agree with you that there is no need to ban/errata her, but I want to make it clear that she is a mistake. Like I have said 1000 times she just makes it way to hard to design future pieces, and not just because of her +10 damage to the people on your squad, but for the boardwide cancellation of C.E.'s. Oh I have a great idea for this awesome commander effect, but if I ever run into an OR squad it is an auto loss... yay.... in playtesting for set 4 I have ran into this problem so many times it is just sad. Sure you could take those armies to a tournament and hope you don't play an OR squad, but if you do, you might as well save the hour and shake their hand and say good game lol. And that is a bad thing for the game IMHO.
The other problem I have with what you are saying Bill, is your idea that she is exactly what YOU all wanted her to do for DoTF make OR playable and competitive, the problem with this type of thought process is exactly my complaint for her, what she does to the future of the game. I mean come on lets see how many new pieces come out with Disciplined leader, yslamari, etc just to tone her down. It just seems like she was designed with no thought about the future and only what she would do to the meta in that time period.
GRANTED, I THINK/KNOW THE DESIGNERS ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO KEEP FROM BREAKING THE GAME, but it confines the designers on what they can and can not make from this point on.
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Echo24 wrote:(I'm not going to comment on any part of the rest of your post, because it's all just off-topic squabbling) I wouldn't say it's off topic. It was all about Bastila. But you're right - it wasn't going to be productive. I deleted a bunch of it.
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So how do we proceed? I don't think that Design Team should disregard the concerns brought up but I do not think that they should make any radical decisions. People do not like the strength that Bastilla gives to the Old Republic. Is it just exasperated by the fact they were very weak before and very strong after her? She makes them competitive yes but the concerns of future design is valid. That is my greatest concern.
Will future fringe pieces be weaker than they would have been because of Bastilla? Will Old Republic pieces be weaker? Will there be less affinity pieces to the Old Republic?
Will future v-sets rare and very rare slots be filled with pieces that will be directly designed to help against Bastilla?
I cannot remember but when the first V-Set came out at the time of designed did the team think it was going to be the ONLY V-Set? When she was designed was there plans for reigning her in?
I'd like to know because I think that would help me decide on her. If she was designed with no V-sets planned for the future, I think she was a mistake. If nothing else came along she would be too strong. If the design team KNEW they were going to design more pieces and pieces to help against her I think that she is fine.
Mod Edit: Trimming out the counting discussion
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Mod Edit: Removing the counting discussion. Not deleted to make sure I don't delete anything that might be quoting this post.
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Mod Edit: Removing the counting discussion.
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FlyingArrow wrote:Echo24 wrote:(I'm not going to comment on any part of the rest of your post, because it's all just off-topic squabbling) I wouldn't say it's off topic. It was all about Bastila. But you're right - it wasn't going to be productive. I deleted a bunch of it. Dude, you took out the awesome line about the plaque  Anyway, glad you did it though as there was already a warning and I would hate to see you come down on! Edit to say great post you snuck in between my last refresh and these posts. (wish I would have read it prior to my just accepting 1/3 - it didnt seem that way to me, but I was too lazy to do the hard work myself ) And while it isnt a huge deal at all of course, Markedman provided this post last night which I think would place him with your majority: Quote:My critique of her is that she feels like a piece created, for the first V-Set, by a "run before you walk" design. I know careful play-testing occurred with her but she feels like the piece was made to make OR competitive as fast as possible. Which shows in all her powers as an all-around bonus. I took notice as he was the creator of the thread and waited so long to provide his opinion. (which might just go along the suppression point I was making before - posting a critique around here can have a flood of 'youre wrong' type posts hit you full steam, and hiding your feelings or saving them till you think it is safe could happen much more then people would realize)
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Mod Edit: Removing the same conversation.
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Neifi wrote:And while it isnt a huge deal at all of course, Markedman provided this post last night which I think would place him with your majority: Quote:My critique of her is that she feels like a piece created, for the first V-Set, by a "run before you walk" design. I know careful play-testing occurred with her but she feels like the piece was made to make OR competitive as fast as possible. Which shows in all her powers as an all-around bonus. I took notice as he was the creator of the thread and waited so long to provide his opinion. (which might just go along the suppression point I was making before - posting a critique around here can have a flood of 'youre wrong' type posts hit you full steam, and hiding your feelings or saving them till you think it is safe could happen much more then people would realize) I am not a person who restrains my opinion. My delay in posting came mostly due to time. Not to derail the conversation, but I don't play the game much anymore. Moving to South FL has proven a detriment to any avid SWM gaming. I still like to take in the rules, issues, concerns, and other items just in case I get back into playing. I, for a lack of a better phrase, am less than a casual gamer. Between crafting customs, my SW: TOR addiction, writing for a direct-to-video show, conventions, and work, the SWM world is more along the lines of nostalgia vs active gaming. However, I have seen a few discussions of upcoming V-sets and even some cursory conversations with my previous game group back when DOTF came out of the use of Bastilla as a point of conversation. Maybe it was me or maybe it was them that started the conversation, but I thought that with the passive-aggressive Bastilla remarks in those threads, a discussion should be had. If anyone takes umbrage to the conversation, you can clearly rest it on my shoulders but I am one of those who just rather air the concerns and adulations instead of just passively throwing things out there. I wanted to let those who played competitively and casually discuss her. Since, I don't play much anymore, I wanted those who directly brought her up start the conversation. I used to play in the Northern VA game group. The winner of Gencon, Ian aka Jester007, was someone I played more than a few times so I had seen enough of Bastilla during his run. I played him 4 times (more or less) during two regionals with my best finish being 4th in VA. So, I have seen Bastilla used to her full potential.
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Mod Edit: Same
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Deaths_Baine wrote:Sorry can't quote on thios computer it is so slow...
Anyways to Bill, first off I agree with you that there is no need to ban/errata her, but I want to make it clear that she is a mistake. Like I have said 1000 times she just makes it way to hard to design future pieces, and not just because of her +10 damage to the people on your squad, but for the boardwide cancellation of C.E.'s. Oh I have a great idea for this awesome commander effect, but if I ever run into an OR squad it is an auto loss... yay.... in playtesting for set 4 I have ran into this problem so many times it is just sad. Sure you could take those armies to a tournament and hope you don't play an OR squad, but if you do, you might as well save the hour and shake their hand and say good game lol. And that is a bad thing for the game IMHO.
The other problem I have with what you are saying Bill, is your idea that she is exactly what YOU all wanted her to do for DoTF make OR playable and competitive, the problem with this type of thought process is exactly my complaint for her, what she does to the future of the game. I mean come on lets see how many new pieces come out with Disciplined leader, yslamari, etc just to tone her down. It just seems like she was designed with no thought about the future and only what she would do to the meta in that time period.
GRANTED, I THINK/KNOW THE DESIGNERS ARE GOOD ENOUGH TO KEEP FROM BREAKING THE GAME, but it confines the designers on what they can and can not make from this point on. First, I will restate that Billiv was not a designer for Destiny of the Force. He was a playtester. I know whose baby she was, and you can find his statements on her elsewhere. And again, this is no different than with the stuff that WOTC left us. Bastilla is actually much easier to design around, than say Whorm or the TBSV or the Mouse Droid or the Czerka. Seriously, 10 Dam is so much lesser than getting Twin or GMA. And if there is a CE that you are so dependent on, that if you lose for a few rounds, that you lose, then your squad is not well rounded enough. It isn't as if Bastilla will make the designers stop designing CEs. That like saying the Vong should mean that Jedi and Sith should stop being designed. What it will do, is make the designers look at some more creative options. Again, Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master's CE is a great one to start off with. And that's just a start. There is a world of creative options available, that Bastilla makes the designers look into. And that is what seperates a good designer from the crowd. See the limitations that certain pieces give (90% of them being WOTC pieces), and work with them to create new options. And the designers are a group of people. Just because one sees little to no issue with her, does not mean others are not paying attention and taking notes. Does not mean anything will happen, but don't let one person color the whole design process.
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I would like to point out to you Echo that I remember you posting that Bastilla and Poggle the lesser are the 2 biggest MISTAKES of the Vsets so far. Regardless of if she is broken or not there are quite a few people that have labeled her mistakes, you, me, i am pretty sure grand moff boris did on the gamers site. Granted I believe that we feel this way for reasons other then she is to powerful/broken, but a mistake non-the-less.
I think people just want acknowledgement that yeah, she is as powerful as most people think and she does make casual games awful, BUT that there are things in the future being designed to make her less so.
After the play testing I have been doing for set 4 I believe Bastilla is the "Flavor of the Month" and the complaints about her will go away.
People just need to take it upon themselves to fix the probem tho. If you are only a casual player just don't use her period... simple fix. If you play in tournaments, plan for her/around her and you will be fine, she is beatable. No need to make the game more complicated by erratas or bans.
Like others have said before we survived SSM, override, lancers, etc. We will surely survive this.
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