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So...I thought Mace Windu was not tier one........... Options
Hinkbert
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 4:32:47 AM
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MaliciousCrumb wrote:
I don't think that Trevor's squad was too difficult to come up with. It consists of pretty much the best of the republic. GOWK was made to be competitive, Mace is the beatstick powerhouse, Rex is the shooter for long-range situations, Lobot allows you to prepare for your opponent, and R2 is a given. It is one of the most powerful of squads, but is easy to come up with, because of its lack of tricks and gimmicks. What I'm trying to say is that it isn't Trevor's squad building skills that won him GenCon, it was his playing skills. I wasn't there, but I can tell that he played it flawlessly.


If we grant this premise as true for a moment, then I think it shows how important it is to know your squad, interactions, opponents, and maps (things Trevor knows plenty about). If you read his report you'll notice he mentions considering other squads but eventually picks Mace cause he knows it, he's been running it, and it's fun. I felt the same way about my squad and look how that turned out for us. We both got Mace in the top 8. If there's any one lesson I can take away from the championship it's this: knowing your squad and practicing with it is of the highest importance.
fingersandteeth
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:16:24 AM
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I don't see how anyone can say that this mace is anything but T1.

He can do something no other piece in the game can get close to. If he attacks, he attacks 3 times.
He crits one in 7 rolls (averages 4-5 rolls a round once engaged), triple damage and then flurries. So every other turn he does 120 dmg.
(60 + flurry, + 20 + 20) quite often after moving 10 squares. If he hasn't moved he can hit you back if you are stupid enough to use Djem so or riposte on him.

Name one other piece that can do anything close to that.

Not only that but his base defense is 2nd highest, he has a bucket load of force, he has reflect that he can reroll and access to 4 of the best movement breakers in the game. Also, he has absorb so quite often his triple dmg crits will go undefended.

There may be fun squads that appear to utilize Mace poorly but to say that this figure, which is quite possibly the best figure in the best faction, is anything other than the upper echelon of pieces in this game really leaves me shaking my head.

There really is no debate here.

Is he unbeatable? No, but make no mistake, Mace is one of the pieces released in the Vsets that increased the power ceiling.

He is a meta piece (i.e. you must design squads with him in your mind) and if he doesn't continue to see top level play it will mean that vset power creep has lost control.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:25:17 AM
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Or there were a lot of counters made for him. I know I want to play around with Saesee, JM a bit more now with the Quiggy Spirit. Have some beefy Droids in the enviroment. It's funny to see Mace choke against a Droid that can reduce his damage by 20.
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:44:04 AM
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fingersandteeth wrote:
I don't see how anyone can say that this mace is anything but T1.

He can do something no other piece in the game can get close to. If he attacks, he attacks 3 times.
He crits one in 7 rolls (averages 4-5 rolls a round once engaged), triple damage and then flurries. So every other turn he does 120 dmg.
(60 + flurry, + 20 + 20) quite often after moving 10 squares. If he hasn't moved he can hit you back if you are stupid enough to use Djem so or riposte on him.

Name one other piece that can do anything close to that.

Not only that but his base defense is 2nd highest, he has a bucket load of force, he has reflect that he can reroll and access to 4 of the best movement breakers in the game. Also, he has absorb so quite often his triple dmg crits will go undefended.

There may be fun squads that appear to utilize Mace poorly but to say that this figure, which is quite possibly the best figure in the best faction, is anything other than the upper echelon of pieces in this game really leaves me shaking my head.

There really is no debate here.

Is he unbeatable? No, but make no mistake, Mace is one of the pieces released in the Vsets that increased the power ceiling.

He is a meta piece (i.e. you must design squads with him in your mind) and if he doesn't continue to see top level play it will mean that vset power creep has lost control.


The problem is that he does inconsistent damage. Without spending FP (which he often needs for Reflect, Absorb, moving faster, or re-rolling saves) he has a 48.8% chance of getting a crit in his 3 attacks. In my opinion, that's just not consistent enough, especially for a 65 point piece. Like I've said, he's a good piece, maybe even a very good piece, but I don't consider him tier 1 all-around. His variance is too high.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:17:32 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
The problem is that he does inconsistent damage. Without spending FP (which he often needs for Reflect, Absorb, moving faster, or re-rolling saves) he has a 48.8% chance of getting a crit in his 3 attacks. In my opinion, that's just not consistent enough, especially for a 65 point piece. Like I've said, he's a good piece, maybe even a very good piece, but I don't consider him tier 1 all-around. His variance is too high.



I don't see how 60 damage is not consistent... There are plenty of Tier 1 beatsticks that don't do 60+ damage consistently in the meta now. With Bastilla, Palleon, Force Absorb, it limits a lot of what beatsticks can do. Look at the top 8 for instance Revan 60 damage, Kaan 60 Damage, GOWK 40 damage, Kybuck 60 (with Sky to one target), The only one in there that does more is Corran who can do 90. Don't see the problem with 60 damage really.

(I may have missed another piece, I am at work, so if there was a beatstick in the top 8 I missed that can do more, please post.)
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:25:07 PM
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Well, there's Lord Vader, who can do 120 damage after moving. (Sith rage and lightsaber assault)

It's quite tough judging Mace because of his inconsistent criticals, but I can say that he is great even if we don't count them. He has 16 attack, which won't miss hardly anything, 22 defense to keep him alive, 150 HP to do the same, and triple attack with GMA for probably an auto 60 damage. People rarely notice this, but he's got LIGHTSABER RIPOSTE. That means that he can do 100 damage every round to a melee character. With 5 chances on your turn, and an extra 2 chances on the opponent's turn, it brings up your chances for a crit to huge amounts (I'm bad at math), and it's likely that you will get at least 1 crit in that time, doing an extra 40 damage and another attack. So, if we count up the triple attack, riposte twice, we'll say that 1 attack missed, and 1 was a critical, and counting flurry, the damage ends up to being 160. That can easily take out most characters, I'm quite sure!
Echo24
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:33:03 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
The problem is that he does inconsistent damage. Without spending FP (which he often needs for Reflect, Absorb, moving faster, or re-rolling saves) he has a 48.8% chance of getting a crit in his 3 attacks. In my opinion, that's just not consistent enough, especially for a 65 point piece. Like I've said, he's a good piece, maybe even a very good piece, but I don't consider him tier 1 all-around. His variance is too high.



I don't see how 60 damage is not consistent... There are plenty of Tier 1 beatsticks that don't do 60+ damage consistently in the meta now. With Bastilla, Palleon, Force Absorb, it limits a lot of what beatsticks can do. Look at the top 8 for instance Revan 60 damage, Kaan 60 Damage, GOWK 40 damage, Kybuck 60 (with Sky to one target), The only one in there that does more is Corran who can do 90. Don't see the problem with 60 damage really.

(I may have missed another piece, I am at work, so if there was a beatstick in the top 8 I missed that can do more, please post.)


Every single piece you mentioned either does something really significant for the squad (a great CE, Master Tactician, etc.), costs significantly less than Mace does, or both. I can get 120 consistent damage out of Lord Vader or at least 80 consistent damage out of Mara Jade (although I get Cunning with her more often than Mace crits I think since that's based on my play as opposed to pure luck). I can get 80 consistent damage out of Captain Rex or Dash Rendar. 60 damage is really not much at all for a piece which brings nothing to the table except damage output.
DARPH NADER
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:57:10 PM
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Hinkbert wrote:
If there's any one lesson I can take away from the championship it's this: knowing your squad and practicing with it is of the highest importance.


Agreed your statment can only be considered as an axiom, my play report further reinforces this as being a truism when looking to play competitively.

Wink
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:05:37 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
The problem is that he does inconsistent damage. Without spending FP (which he often needs for Reflect, Absorb, moving faster, or re-rolling saves) he has a 48.8% chance of getting a crit in his 3 attacks. In my opinion, that's just not consistent enough, especially for a 65 point piece. Like I've said, he's a good piece, maybe even a very good piece, but I don't consider him tier 1 all-around. His variance is too high.



I don't see how 60 damage is not consistent... There are plenty of Tier 1 beatsticks that don't do 60+ damage consistently in the meta now. With Bastilla, Palleon, Force Absorb, it limits a lot of what beatsticks can do. Look at the top 8 for instance Revan 60 damage, Kaan 60 Damage, GOWK 40 damage, Kybuck 60 (with Sky to one target), The only one in there that does more is Corran who can do 90. Don't see the problem with 60 damage really.

(I may have missed another piece, I am at work, so if there was a beatstick in the top 8 I missed that can do more, please post.)


Every single piece you mentioned either does something really significant for the squad (a great CE, Master Tactician, etc.), costs significantly less than Mace does, or both. I can get 120 consistent damage out of Lord Vader or at least 80 consistent damage out of Mara Jade (although I get Cunning with her more often than Mace crits I think since that's based on my play as opposed to pure luck). I can get 80 consistent damage out of Captain Rex or Dash Rendar. 60 damage is really not much at all for a piece which brings nothing to the table except damage output.


Also, 12 attack is different from 16 attack. Considering the enemy will probably have cover, how can you assume that all of your attacks will hit and do 80 damage? Unless you are firing at ugnaughts, expect that 1 or 2 shots will miss. If Mace Windu misses, with even the high attack that he has, he can reroll it twice. You are also forgetting about survivability. If your opponent has some movement breakers like levitation or R2, you can also expect Rex to last a little longer than an AT-ST in a log trap, even with Greater Mobile. Mace has a bunch of tricks that allow him to stay alive longer. Your opponent has the fear that its Darth Vader will get hit by a critical, scaring off a lot of enemies. Force absorb can stop those sith ragers, and his high defense and hit points do him well.
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:28:01 PM
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I think Lord Vader is an apt comparison. Lord Vader, has a LOT of bad matchups. 14 base Atk is going to limit his hits a lot. Add in the reliance on Assault, any good Force Defense/Absorb will ruin his day. Same applies to Mace. Without crits, you are doing 3 hits at 20 Dam a piece. Not bad, certainly. But there are things that can shrug that off. Force Bubble, VCA 6, Advanced or normal Shields 2 will cut into his damage output pretty well. Add in things that can take away his crit damage (Droid, Resillient/Armored Space Suit), he doesn't look as shiny.

Something to keep in mind, from what I've seen, HK-47 Assassin Droid was an MVP at Gencon. Even in squads that didn't fully utilize his options. Beefy droid squads will be coming back, a lot in part to Mace, but mostly with HK and the new Boa-dur, Mace's damage is going to have issues. Mace giving you issues? Toss 2 T1s at him backed with HK's Disruptive. We will see how OR droids develops, if at all, or if Seps evolve into something else to fight Mace. It is something I'm excited to see.
MaliciousCrumb
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:34:25 PM
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Sithborg wrote:
I think Lord Vader is an apt comparison. Lord Vader, has a LOT of bad matchups.

I was just adding another to Deaths_Baine's list. He still does have a damage potential of 120. Some of the other ones that he said also had a lot of bad matchups. But it wasn't about that. It was a discussion about the damage that someone could dish out.

I think that you are right about droids getting used more, though. I think (and hope) that separatists will be getting used more often. Same thing with the OR droids.
Hinkbert
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:38:56 PM
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I concur with Sithborg on the return of droids. If nothing else the meta was full of living characters and as such a lot of the valuable pieces hurt living pieces more (Atton, Mace, Kaan). With Mace winning Gencon, and furthering his popularity, I think we'll see a bunch more droids to counter.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:42:58 PM
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That Commando Spotter Droid might be a good throw-in for Sep droid squads too - it means they can stand in the open against shooter squads and not get shot to pieces so quickly.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:48:26 PM
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Echo24 wrote:
Deaths_Baine wrote:
Echo24 wrote:
The problem is that he does inconsistent damage. Without spending FP (which he often needs for Reflect, Absorb, moving faster, or re-rolling saves) he has a 48.8% chance of getting a crit in his 3 attacks. In my opinion, that's just not consistent enough, especially for a 65 point piece. Like I've said, he's a good piece, maybe even a very good piece, but I don't consider him tier 1 all-around. His variance is too high.



I don't see how 60 damage is not consistent... There are plenty of Tier 1 beatsticks that don't do 60+ damage consistently in the meta now. With Bastilla, Palleon, Force Absorb, it limits a lot of what beatsticks can do. Look at the top 8 for instance Revan 60 damage, Kaan 60 Damage, GOWK 40 damage, Kybuck 60 (with Sky to one target), The only one in there that does more is Corran who can do 90. Don't see the problem with 60 damage really.

(I may have missed another piece, I am at work, so if there was a beatstick in the top 8 I missed that can do more, please post.)


Every single piece you mentioned either does something really significant for the squad (a great CE, Master Tactician, etc.), costs significantly less than Mace does, or both. I can get 120 consistent damage out of Lord Vader or at least 80 consistent damage out of Mara Jade (although I get Cunning with her more often than Mace crits I think since that's based on my play as opposed to pure luck). I can get 80 consistent damage out of Captain Rex or Dash Rendar. 60 damage is really not much at all for a piece which brings nothing to the table except damage output.



Mace also brings force absorb on a useful piece which completely kills lord vader and mara jedi. He also brings in defense against lancers, and is dang good against yobuck. Mace is also amazing against all other beat sticks leaving you to decide to attack GOWK who can prevent the damage, or go after Mace and pray he does not roll a crit on the riposte... Just look at what happened to Corran in (Hinks?) play report. Mace did 120 damage to corran on 1 Riposte, that is bringing a lot to a squad.
TheHutts
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:56:42 PM
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I do agree that Mace does well against Lord Vader, Mara, and Lancer, who were all pretty big pieces in the pre v-set meta. Right now, Mace is maybe getting played in about 15-20% of Regional and GenCon squads (this is totally a guess!).

Do you think that a few more bad matchups in the meta will mean less Mace, and that those other pieces will come back into contention? I think there are pieces in v-set 4 that should cut Mace down a bit; strong pieces with parry, like Satele Shan and Grievous, and more options for droid squads like Bao-Dur.
Hinkbert
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:57:51 PM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:



Mace also brings force absorb on a useful piece which completely kills lord vader and mara jedi. He also brings in defense against lancers, and is dang good against yobuck. Mace is also amazing against all other beat sticks leaving you to decide to attack GOWK who can prevent the damage, or go after Mace and pray he does not roll a crit on the riposte... Just look at what happened to Corran in (Hinks?) play report. Mace did 120 damage to corran on 1 Riposte, that is bringing a lot to a squad.


That was in Trevor's game against Deri. Against Bill he also got a crit against Yobuck with a Riposte. Lesson: try not to attack Mace with a melee piece unless you can mitigate the damage. Sure, it may be a small chance to crit on a riposte, but when it happens to you, it sucks. (also, this is why Mace vs Mace usually ends in both killing each other)
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:04:47 PM
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TheHutts wrote:
I do agree that Mace does well against Lord Vader, Mara, and Lancer, who were all pretty big pieces in the pre v-set meta. Right now, Mace is maybe getting played in about 15-20% of Regional and GenCon squads (this is totally a guess!).

Do you think that a few more bad matchups in the meta will mean less Mace, and that those other pieces will come back into contention? I think there are pieces in v-set 4 that should cut Mace down a bit; strong pieces with parry, like Satele Shan and Grievous, and more options for droid squads like Bao-Dur.



Oh yeah, I think that as time goes on with set 4, Mace will become less and less played, With big time shooters such as Mando the Vindicated coming out who can just out right take a crit from Mace. The new IG-88, should open up some pretty nice squad building combos that can give Mace fits. The other thing that I think will help give Mace fits are all the new options for Bodyguards. This is good for the game though keeps things fresh and interesting.
shmi15
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 5:47:14 PM
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HA. Echo, you use a Mara army, I will use a Mace army, and we will count who does 120 damage more times LOL

And as for all those pieces that reduce Mace's damage, guess what, they reduce EVERY OTHER CHARACTERS DAMAGE AS WELL. So that is a pointless argument.

The argument against Mace being tier 1 gets more and more ridiculous every time someone argues against him. Now with that being said, do I think he will see any big play with v-set 4 being released? Absolutely not. He had his shining time, this 1 year where he was easily the best piece in the game. But, with the release of this new V-set, there are plenty of what I have dubbed "Mace Hate" pieces legal now. So his play will drop significantly.

But lets face it, No Melee piece has dominated a season of Minis like Mace Windu, where you had to design your squad expecting to play him,and when you did, you had to pray he didn't crit your best piece and absolutely destroy it.
He changed the game so much, the designers had to create solutions to him Immediately so he wouldn't dominate more than 1 year. Which, contrary to how I sound, I LOVE. I don't want something to be dominant more than a year, especially the way he did this year.

I'm a Sam Jackson fan, and a huge Mace Windu fan, and with that being said, I will finish this statement with my favorite line, and my squad name (Which I noticed was used at Gencon, but know that I used that squad name 2 years ago with a terrible MAce Flapper )

"This Party, Is Over."

Shmi15
Sithborg
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:08:55 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
HA. Echo, you use a Mara army, I will use a Mace army, and we will count who does 120 damage more times LOL

And as for all those pieces that reduce Mace's damage, guess what, they reduce EVERY OTHER CHARACTERS DAMAGE AS WELL. So that is a pointless argument.

The argument against Mace being tier 1 gets more and more ridiculous every time someone argues against him. Now with that being said, do I think he will see any big play with v-set 4 being released? Absolutely not. He had his shining time, this 1 year where he was easily the best piece in the game. But, with the release of this new V-set, there are plenty of what I have dubbed "Mace Hate" pieces legal now. So his play will drop significantly.

But lets face it, No Melee piece has dominated a season of Minis like Mace Windu, where you had to design your squad expecting to play him,and when you did, you had to pray he didn't crit your best piece and absolutely destroy it.
He changed the game so much, the designers had to create solutions to him Immediately so he wouldn't dominate more than 1 year. Which, contrary to how I sound, I LOVE. I don't want something to be dominant more than a year, especially the way he did this year.

I'm a Sam Jackson fan, and a huge Mace Windu fan, and with that being said, I will finish this statement with my favorite line, and my squad name (Which I noticed was used at Gencon, but know that I used that squad name 2 years ago with a terrible MAce Flapper )

"This Party, Is Over."

Shmi15


Yeah, no. Yobuck and the Lancer have dominated far more and for longer than Mace has, and probably will. And I can gaurentee you that Mace was not hated against in V4 or V5 so far.

And really, Droids/Resillient/Armored Space Suit hurts Mace than many other pieces. He doesn't have easy access to do more than 20 damage other than a crit. Take that away, and he starts having issue keeping up damage wise.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 7:22:58 PM
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shmi15 wrote:
The argument against Mace being tier 1 gets more and more ridiculous every time someone argues against him.


This. GOWK/Mace won freakin' GenCon. It was the only squad type to be represented twice in the top 9 (unless 'Bastila' counts as a squad type). GOWK/Mace is a tier 1 squad. It's not just a Tier 1 squad - it's a gatekeeper. There are lots of gatekeepers right now. And there are tons of tier 1 squads - look how much variety is in the top 9 and in the regionals winners. The variety of winners is great. If you don't want to call Mace/GOWK a tier 1 squad, we'll just call it a championship squad instead. BigGrin
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