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Daala squads = Broken??? Options
Darth O
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:23:05 PM
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How's this for a hate squad?

-->tsw you can't beat Daala--
55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi
51 Yoda on Kybuck
35 Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Master
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
4 Gran Raider
12 Rodian Brute x4
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 12 activations)

You get Yobuck AND crazy GOWK with MotF 3. If they refuse to kill Qui-Gon, you send him up to harass the commanders.

That is, theoretically. They'll just kill Qui-Gon in round 3 once they've dealt with everyone else.
swinefeld
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:29:06 PM
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Frankly, for 12 pts with the 3 CEs, the Snowtrooper Officer doesn't need Rapport at all.

harryg
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:49:00 PM
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I like that the hate squad for arguably the closest thing to broken that the vsets have produced is all WOTC
billiv15
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 6:52:05 PM
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How's this for a hate squad. I just copied this off some rube's page here on bloomilk.
--Yodabuck Maximum--
51 Yoda on Kybuck
47 General Skywalker
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
4 Gran Raider
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

:)
urbanjedi
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 7:00:40 PM
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that squad is only good if you bring in an MTB with Lobot LOL
Darth O
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 7:34:27 PM
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Location: New Zealand ( kind of by Australia)
billiv15 wrote:
How's this for a hate squad. I just copied this off some rube's page here on bloomilk.
--Yodabuck Maximum--
51 Yoda on Kybuck
47 General Skywalker
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
27 Lobot
23 Captain Panaka
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
8 Mas Amedda
4 Gran Raider
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

:)


This is still my favourite squad to play, not gonna lie.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Thursday, February 13, 2014 10:24:07 PM
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Another brainstorming idea... what if the Zygerrian is changed to:

Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living ally with Melee Attack and a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed

(or just its speed)
Galactic Funk
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 5:19:50 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
Another brainstorming idea... what if the Zygerrian is changed to:

Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living ally with Melee Attack and a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed

(or just its speed)


Honestly I don't see the piece being abusive as long as it's limited to non-unique fringe with an equal or lesser point cost. Poggle Bombs never needed a boost either.
theultrastar
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 7:38:20 AM
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Galactic Funk wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Another brainstorming idea... what if the Zygerrian is changed to:

Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living ally with Melee Attack and a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed

(or just its speed)


Honestly I don't see the piece being abusive as long as it's limited to non-unique fringe with an equal or lesser point cost. Poggle Bombs never needed a boost either.


You don't think Cad Bane and Arica, Black & Blue can abuse this even if it's only restricted to non uniques? Have fun when Cad is in your backfield round 1 teeing off for 120. This squad is already a nightmare to face, as is. This is a classic case of the strong getting stronger, and the poor getting poorer. Why give Imps another weapon to add to their arsenal, to make what is already one of the top squads in the history of the game, that much stronger.
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 7:49:18 AM
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theultrastar wrote:
Galactic Funk wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Another brainstorming idea... what if the Zygerrian is changed to:

Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living ally with Melee Attack and a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed

(or just its speed)


Honestly I don't see the piece being abusive as long as it's limited to non-unique fringe with an equal or lesser point cost. Poggle Bombs never needed a boost either.


You don't think Cad Bane and Arica, Black & Blue can abuse this even if it's only restricted to non uniques? Have fun when Cad is in your backfield round 1 teeing off for 120. This squad is already a nightmare to face, as is.
This is precisely why I'm suggesting that Slave Driver is not only restricted to Fringe pieces, but that it also only allows a piece to move its speed (not double its speed). The Zygerrian will still be good, because he'll give your swap fodder an 18-square range (equal to an Amanin Scout, but cheaper), but it won't be overpowered.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:02:41 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
theultrastar wrote:
Galactic Funk wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Another brainstorming idea... what if the Zygerrian is changed to:

Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living ally with Melee Attack and a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed

(or just its speed)


Honestly I don't see the piece being abusive as long as it's limited to non-unique fringe with an equal or lesser point cost. Poggle Bombs never needed a boost either.


You don't think Cad Bane and Arica, Black & Blue can abuse this even if it's only restricted to non uniques? Have fun when Cad is in your backfield round 1 teeing off for 120. This squad is already a nightmare to face, as is.
This is precisely why I'm suggesting that Slave Driver is not only restricted to Fringe pieces, but that it also only allows a piece to move its speed (not double its speed). The Zygerrian will still be good, because he'll give your swap fodder an 18-square range (equal to an Amanin Scout, but cheaper), but it won't be overpowered.


It's more than 18, even if they only drive speed instead of double speed. You can still do the Zygerrian 'ladder' for swap, though it gets more expensive with the reduction from speed to double speed.

Three Zygerrians all start next to a Brute
1. Zygerrian drives Brute 6.
2. Zygerrian drives Brute 6.
3. Zygerrian moves 6 and then drives the Brute 6.
4. Brute runs 12.

Total range: 30. (36 if Flim and Thrawn didn't have Rival.)



In the Republic the range is even larger with Tarpals/Panaka. (It also costs a whole lot.)

Four Zygerrians all start next to a Brute
1. ZygerrianA drives the Brute and ZygerrianD.
2. ZygerrianB drives the Brute and ZygerrianD.
3. ZygerrianC moves 6 and then drives the Brute and ZygerrianD.
4. ZygerrianD moves 6 and then drives the Brute twice.
5. Brute runs 12.

Total range: 42. Then...

6. Swap in Yobuck.
7. Gallop. 26 square gallop with a total range of 68 squares from the starting zone in one round.

(Although this probably isn't practical because the Republic doesn't consistently out-activate the opponent, and you need a bunch of free activations at the end to do this without getting the Brute picked off. Plus it's too expensive.)
Galactic Funk
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:12:47 AM
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I'm glad you guys fully broke down those examples because I hadn't previously considered some of them.

swinefeld
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:17:54 AM
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Change it so the Zygs can't drive each other. Lower cost, or something like that. Then you'll have to work at it harder to get the "ladder" effect.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:23:45 AM
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FlyingArrow wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
theultrastar wrote:
Galactic Funk wrote:
FlyingArrow wrote:
Another brainstorming idea... what if the Zygerrian is changed to:

Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living ally with Melee Attack and a printed cost equal to or less than this character may immediately move up to double its speed

(or just its speed)


Honestly I don't see the piece being abusive as long as it's limited to non-unique fringe with an equal or lesser point cost. Poggle Bombs never needed a boost either.


You don't think Cad Bane and Arica, Black & Blue can abuse this even if it's only restricted to non uniques? Have fun when Cad is in your backfield round 1 teeing off for 120. This squad is already a nightmare to face, as is.
This is precisely why I'm suggesting that Slave Driver is not only restricted to Fringe pieces, but that it also only allows a piece to move its speed (not double its speed). The Zygerrian will still be good, because he'll give your swap fodder an 18-square range (equal to an Amanin Scout, but cheaper), but it won't be overpowered.


It's more than 18, even if they only drive speed instead of double speed. You can still do the Zygerrian 'ladder' for swap, though it gets more expensive with the reduction from speed to double speed.

Three Zygerrians all start next to a Brute
1. Zygerrian drives Brute 6.
2. Zygerrian drives Brute 6.
3. Zygerrian moves 6 and then drives the Brute 6.
4. Brute runs 12.

Total range: 30. (36 if Flim and Thrawn didn't have Rival.)



In the Republic the range is even larger range with Tarpals/Panaka. (It also costs a whole lot.)

Four Zygerrians all start next to a Brute
1. ZygerrianA drives the Brute and ZygerrianD.
2. ZygerrianB drives the Brute and ZygerrianD.
3. ZygerrianC moves 6 and then drives the Brute and ZygerrianD.
4. ZygerrianD moves 6 and then drives the Brute twice.
5. Brute runs 12.

Total range: 42. Then...

6. Swap in Yobuck.
7. Gallop. 26 square gallop with a total range of 68 squares from the starting zone in one round.

(Although this probably isn't practical because the Republic doesn't consistently out-activate the opponent, and you need a bunch of free activations at the end to do this without getting the Brute picked off. Plus it's too expensive.)


You're right about this.

The very moment the piece was proposed I thought it was a bad idea, and have not been happy about it since. The more and more I think about it the worse I realize it actually is.

I thought just making it fringe would be enough - but now I agree with Trevor. The MINIMUM we need to do is make it fringe AND make it only speed (not double speed).

Perhaps make it melee only as well.

Yes you can still go further than 18 if you really spend the money, but it has a steep drop off in cost effectiveness.



And yes - Daala is overpowered without the Zygerrian - but adding in the Zygerrian negates several viable counters to Daala squads too.

I'd much rather face a big old nasty Snowtrooper squad that can only run 12 max each - no matter what their attack and damage bonus is - than fear those same squads PLUS the addition of deep striking raxus prime, even if that means the snowtroopers don't hit quite as hard.

If we are to only change 1 piece - it has to be the Zygerrian. This is top priority.
TimmerB123
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:30:14 AM
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swinefeld wrote:
Change it so the Zygs can't drive each other. Lower cost, or something like that. Then you'll have to work at it harder to get the "ladder" effect.


Never made sense that they could drive each other. Even with this broken concept - it should have been pieces with a lower cost, not equal to or lower. (make it 9 points and slave driver can only effect LOWER cost figs)

The issue is that the core of the concept is broken. It's just a bad idea. A movement breaker on a fringe non-unique under 10 points is just a really bad idea in the first place.

We're brainstorming like crazy to think of ways for an 8pt non-unique to not be broken. And it will most likely take multiple of these suggestions to make it not crazy good.

1. Fringe only
2. Only speed (not double speed)
3. Only effect melee
4. Only effect lower cost followers
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 8:37:55 AM
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The other place I've used this piece is in a URORORORORO/Talon Karrde sandpeople squad. That's been a lot of fun but not close to broken like Daala is (might be? Jury's still out until these next 2 tournaments I guess). You still have the launch for big damage issue with tusken raiders, but it's melee so you have to get adjacent and they have to be unactivated so you can get Ambush for big damage. (Cunning from Jabba if the Mouse can keep up. UROROROR being huge weakens the squad overall, too.) Anyway, with that in mind, more brainstorming...


Slave Driver (Replaces attacks: range 6; 1 non-Unique living Fringe ally with a printed cost equal to or less than 1/2 this character's cost may immediately move up to its speed)


That would limit it to Brutes, Ugnaughts, Ewoks, Tusken Raiders, PBT, and Grans. It means there's no chance of being surprised later by finding out that the Aqualish Assassin (for example) gets overpowered when driven out quickly, and it doesn't completely block all future development of decent Fringe pieces in the 5-7 point range. Any future Fringe pieces under 5 would need extra scrutiny, but they shouldn't be strong anyway.
adamb0nd
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:54:19 AM
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Just curious. Whatever the errata may be, what are the odds of a re-release of the card after something is set in stone in a later release? A lot of these changes seems like they'd drastically effect the piece (wording of ability, character cost, etc). Would be nice to get an updated card once the fig is fixed... assuming its cost effectively possible.
theultrastar
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:07:20 AM
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I can see getting a PDF. version of the new stat card. Not a new printing of the new stat block. Would cost way too much money.


EDIT: unless the new version was included as a bonus in set 8.
Sithborg
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:30:19 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Just curious. Whatever the errata may be, what are the odds of a re-release of the card after something is set in stone in a later release? A lot of these changes seems like they'd drastically effect the piece (wording of ability, character cost, etc). Would be nice to get an updated card once the fig is fixed... assuming its cost effectively possible.


Zero.
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:30:50 AM
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adamb0nd wrote:
Just curious. Whatever the errata may be, what are the odds of a re-release of the card after something is set in stone in a later release? A lot of these changes seems like they'd drastically effect the piece (wording of ability, character cost, etc). Would be nice to get an updated card once the fig is fixed... assuming its cost effectively possible.
I'm not the person in charge of this, but I think this will be no problem at all. Especially if we're going to be making significant and multiple changes to how abilities work. It's one thing to make it Fringe only. Another to make it non-unique. Another to change the distance (double-speed or speed)...all those things together get far too complex for a simple workaround on an existing card. I think that if we go the errata route, it is pretty much a necessity that we at least provide a pdf. Many of us sleeve our cards, and so it's not inconceivable to just print the new version on some basic paper and place that version in, on top of the original card.
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