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Fall Vassal Tournament Discussion Options
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 7:49:22 PM
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In solidarity with Spry and any other players who may not be speaking up (due to the bullying and shaming tactics), I will be locking my room in every game I play in.

Spry I applaud you for your honesty and courage to share. I support your wise choice of mental self care.


People need to think about the players. Maybe some don't care, and others may even like an audience.

But for those who having an audience makes the game NO LONGER FUN - we need to respect that.


Playing this game is supposed to be fun, is it not? Let's not force our ideals of what way to play is fun onto other players.


If you get to watch a game - cool bonus. Don't expect it as your god given right.
Caedus
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:02:32 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Absolutely the players right to lock a room. Both have to agree to have it unlocked.

Everyone in Swiss rounds at a regular tournament plays at the same time, and sitting and watching someone else's full game isn't possible.

This game is for the players, not spectators. If both players agree to it being open then that is perfectly fine, but otherwise I support Spry and any other players right to a locked room.


The fact that people are getting bent out of shape about it upsets me. No player "owes it to you" to allow you to sit and watch their game. It is up to the 2 players playing in that game.

I'm really disappointed that members of this community are stooping to bullying and shaming tactics to try and force this onto anyone.


I agree that it has to be unanimous by the participants to leave the room unlocked. You can ask the tournament organizer to have people leave your table at a tourney, and since that isn't possible post joining the room, locking the room is the only alternative. Me personally, as long as people stay out of the match, I don't care. Now as far as the Top 4 and finals match, those shouldn't be unlocked, but that is up to the TO.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:09:43 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Absolutely the players right to lock a room. Both have to agree to have it unlocked.

Everyone in Swiss rounds at a regular tournament plays at the same time, and sitting and watching someone else's full game isn't possible.

This game is for the players, not spectators. If both players agree to it being open then that is perfectly fine, but otherwise I support Spry and any other players right to a locked room.


The fact that people are getting bent out of shape about it upsets me. No player "owes it to you" to allow you to sit and watch their game. It is up to the 2 players playing in that game.

I'm really disappointed that members of this community are stooping to bullying and shaming tactics to try and force this onto anyone.


oh gosh timmerb get off the soap box.

I actually made plans to watch the game. Literally, made plans to have things done to watch the game that was supposed to happen Saturday night.
But Frenchy cancelled. life happens.
If the game is going to be locked you ought to be told before hand.

But tbh, this game is sometimes stressful and it is a community game.
If Spryguy had said something beforehand of course people would be on board with it.

I think he understands this well enough.

but calling it bullying? and shame tactics?
my gosh this is soft.

It is offensive to not welcome people who feel they should be welcome without reason.
If the reason is known it changes things. I do think it still should have been said from the get go and even still a large part of me says "too bad, this is a community game" you have to be able to deal with it. Everyone that plays has to deal with pressure of whatever form. I will tell you as someone who knows, mental health does not get better by hiding, but by being supported.
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:13:26 PM
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Caedus wrote:

I agree that it has to be unanimous by the participants to leave the room unlocked. You can ask the tournament organizer to have people leave your table at a tourney, and since that isn't possible post joining the room, locking the room is the only alternative. Me personally, as long as people stay out of the match, I don't care. Now as far as the Top 4 and finals match, those shouldn't be unlocked, but that is up to the TO.


@ Caedus
yes leave the table, but not the whole arena. they can still watch from a distance. which is what being an observer should be.

the top 4 should not be unlocked? as in they should be locked?

why? this is a game that people like to be a part of? I think the "locking doors" is not good business for morales sake if nothing else.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:14:25 PM
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I'll also add that if a TO wanted it to be a requirement that all rooms must be unlocked, AND SAID SO AT THE START OF SIGN-UPS, that that is totally their right.

Then everyone could make their own decision on if they wanted to be a part of that tournament or not.

Since it being a requirement for this tournament is clearly NOT the case, then it has to be left up to the individual players.

Attempts at shaming someone for not wanting an unlocked room is vile
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:19:13 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
I'll also add that if a TO wanted it to be a requirement that all rooms must be unlocked, AND SAID SO AT THE START OF SIGN-UPS, that that is totally their right.

Then everyone could make their own decision on if they wanted to be a part of that tournament or not.

Since it being a requirement for this tournament is clearly NOT the case, then it has to be left up to the individual players.

Attempts at shaming someone for not wanting an unlocked room is vile


I believe it was understood that others were welcome, hence why people are asking when games are happening so they can watch. I have literally watched 6 games this tournament because it is exciting to do so.

It should not be up to the individual players. If I want my door unlocked and my opponent wants it locked than what? who wins the day? it stands to reason that there needs to be a ruling in place. The common sense way it should go is the door stays unlocked. Since precedent has been set.

Your words on me trying to shame someone fall on deaf ears Timmerb, it is not shaming it is stating my opinion on the matter.
Spryguy might feel something, but it should not be shame. It should be regret possibly, but like I said, since he posted his reasons it changes things.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:19:13 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


Supporting it would be understanding their reasons for wanting a locked room and accepting it. Not forcing them to do something they don't want to.



People should ASK FIRST if they can watch a game. It's called common courtesy. It should not be automatically expected
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:22:24 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


Supporting it would be understanding their reasons for wanting a locked room and accepting it. Not forcing them to do something they don't want to.

People should ASK FIRST if they can watch a game. It's called common courtesy. It should not be automatically expected


have to know reasons before you can support it.

And than you have to actually understand the reasons to be able to support it in a meaningful way. Mental Health is tricky. The best scenario is that the community becomes a positive thing for Spryguy. I wish it was because I know I get a lot of watching him play and playing against him. So maybe you should ask yourself if you are applying a superficial bandaid or trying to actually help.
I never ask if I can watch, it should be expected that if I am not disturbing the game that I can watch. Afterall all I am is a name on the screen, I dont have any effect on the game at all, just want to be a part of the game I love.
Caedus
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:22:53 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Caedus wrote:

I agree that it has to be unanimous by the participants to leave the room unlocked. You can ask the tournament organizer to have people leave your table at a tourney, and since that isn't possible post joining the room, locking the room is the only alternative. Me personally, as long as people stay out of the match, I don't care. Now as far as the Top 4 and finals match, those shouldn't be unlocked, but that is up to the TO.


@ Caedus
yes leave the table, but not the whole arena. they can still watch from a distance. which is what being an observer should be.

the top 4 should not be unlocked? as in they should be locked?

why? this is a game that people like to be a part of? I think the "locking doors" is not good business for morales sake if nothing else.


Sorry, that should have been Top 4 should not be locked.

Since we have no "arena", a person would just have to "watch" from the play report.

jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:24:40 PM
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Caedus wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Caedus wrote:

I agree that it has to be unanimous by the participants to leave the room unlocked. You can ask the tournament organizer to have people leave your table at a tourney, and since that isn't possible post joining the room, locking the room is the only alternative. Me personally, as long as people stay out of the match, I don't care. Now as far as the Top 4 and finals match, those shouldn't be unlocked, but that is up to the TO.


@ Caedus
yes leave the table, but not the whole arena. they can still watch from a distance. which is what being an observer should be.

the top 4 should not be unlocked? as in they should be locked?

why? this is a game that people like to be a part of? I think the "locking doors" is not good business for morales sake if nothing else.


Sorry, that should have been Top 4 should not be locked.

Since we have no "arena", a person would just have to "watch" from the play report.



I guess I dont understand this at all.

When people come into my games they are silent, just a name on the screen. They are courteous and do not say anything at all. As if someone was standing far away from the table. Observers in a vassal match are not at the table is what I am saying, they have already been asked to move away from the table.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:30:03 PM
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Location: Chicago
None of this matters.

It was not a requirement for this tournament, so it's a moot point.


When you run a tournament you can make it a rule.


For this tournament, a locked room is any players right. Case closed.

Let's move on
Caedus
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:32:22 PM
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jen'ari wrote:
Caedus wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
Caedus wrote:

I agree that it has to be unanimous by the participants to leave the room unlocked. You can ask the tournament organizer to have people leave your table at a tourney, and since that isn't possible post joining the room, locking the room is the only alternative. Me personally, as long as people stay out of the match, I don't care. Now as far as the Top 4 and finals match, those shouldn't be unlocked, but that is up to the TO.


@ Caedus
yes leave the table, but not the whole arena. they can still watch from a distance. which is what being an observer should be.

the top 4 should not be unlocked? as in they should be locked?

why? this is a game that people like to be a part of? I think the "locking doors" is not good business for morales sake if nothing else.


Sorry, that should have been Top 4 should not be locked.

Since we have no "arena", a person would just have to "watch" from the play report.



I guess I dont understand this at all.

When people come into my games they are silent, just a name on the screen. They are courteous and do not say anything at all. As if someone was standing far away from the table. Observers in a vassal match are not at the table is what I am saying, they have already been asked to move away from the table.


But that's you. I'm ok if someone locks or doesnt lock the room. No big deal to me either, however, I also support the player that does want it locked and believe that it should be unanimous if it is unlocked. That is up to the TO though.
jen'ari
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:37:29 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
None of this matters.

It was not a requirement for this tournament, so it's a moot point.


When you run a tournament you can make it a rule.


For this tournament, a locked room is any players right. Case closed.

Let's move on

welcome back Lord Tim...
your return was quicker than I thought.

put a friggin cork in it already.

You are always like this.
Think about what you are saying here.

There are other people that feel being shut out is hurtful. But Spryguy throws out mental health and you are instantly triggered. he does not need your pity or fake sympathy by the way. #geteducated

It is not a requirement for this tournament does not mean that someone has the right to lock a door. It is a community event.

For this tournament it is not a player's right to close a door if others want to watch. It is a tournament. Since when has there been a closed tournament?
It is absurd. The NBA finals will be played tonight, but you cannot watch, you can see the highlights after the game...

There is another side to this discussion (obviously) you just think you know better and think you have some authority to say something and it just be hunky dory.


I happen to have strong feelings on the matter. I would like to be a part of Spryguy's game as a spectator and as his friend. If he does not want me in his game and he says that me and tells me why it is is different. I would leave the room, he would not even have to lock it.
TimmerB123
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 8:48:31 PM
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jen'ari wrote:

It is absurd. The NBA finals will be played tonight, but you cannot watch, you can see the highlights after the game..


We do agree about one thing - this is absurd.

(PS - last time I checked, every single NBA player has a literal contract giving consent to have their games aired live.)

Clearly this discussion is going nowhere. I'll end the back and forth and wait for Naarkon's official ruling. Kisses. :*
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 11:31:02 PM
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Joined: 5/31/2010
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TimmerB123 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


Supporting it would be understanding their reasons for wanting a locked room and accepting it. Not forcing them to do something they don't want to.



People should ASK FIRST if they can watch a game. It's called common courtesy. It should not be automatically expected



With the game locked how can anyone be sure that what they say happened happened? I am not accusing them of cheating but if you can just lock a game during a tournament then what's to prevent cheating....our sense of honor? Yeah I don't trust that at all.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Sunday, October 1, 2017 11:32:55 PM
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TimmerB123 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


Supporting it would be understanding their reasons for wanting a locked room and accepting it. Not forcing them to do something they don't want to.



People should ASK FIRST if they can watch a game. It's called common courtesy. It should not be automatically expected



Lol also this made me laugh so hard...

Tim if I posted that I couldn't take a crap would you sit on the toilet with one fist raised to support me lol.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:28:39 AM
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Joined: 5/26/2009
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Locked, unlocked. No big deal. Whatever Naarkon says is great. Hooray for tournament organizers!

No reason to fight about it, guys.
UrbanShmi
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:44:41 AM
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Joined: 2/17/2009
Posts: 1,444
I obviously missed this conversation (blasted early bedtime), but I want to put in my two cents. I don't see a need for Vassal rounds to be observed, and it makes me uncomfortable. Frankly, I'm pretty bad at Vassal, and it's embarrassing for someone other than my opponent to see me whiff my way through it. I can have problems with anxiety, as well, which are easier to deal with one on one than with a group watching. And I don't honestly know how much value there is in watching a lot of Vassal games, which are conducted over Skype or phone call, when all you witness is the pieces moving around the board. If you were in a live tournament situation and people came over to watch and you were uncomfortable, are we saying that real life people wouldn't respect a request to go do something else? I hope our community has more respect for each other than that.

Anyway, I know you guys decided to wait for Naarkon to decide the policy going forward, so my comments are pretty much moot. Just felt like I needed to say something.

Darth_Jim
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:55:33 AM
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So I'm trying to shame people now? Nope, not buying that one. When we were talking about this tournament before it started, there was a lot of conversation about people watching. Unlocked rooms were assumed...no reason to think otherwise, given the nature of the conversations. I asked the question the way I did because I want clarity on this issue. It is NOT fair to jump in and watch people's games then lock your own. If this tournament is giving you anxiety Matt, then I don't think I want to participate in it. A game with you isn't worth giving you even more stress in your real life struggles.

Matt is a friend and a fellow Christian who has hit a rough patch. I support him in his struggles and my wife and I have prayed for him. Still, this is a tournament. Everyone should be on a level playing field. Locked rooms should not be a part of it, especially if you regularly observe others playing but lock your own room. If locked rooms are suddenly ok, then I'm out. This has to be fun, not cutthroat stuff. That's how the game grows.
Caedus
Posted: Monday, October 2, 2017 3:57:40 AM
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Deaths_Baine wrote:
TimmerB123 wrote:
jen'ari wrote:
We, the community can support you by being a positive thing not a hindrance


Supporting it would be understanding their reasons for wanting a locked room and accepting it. Not forcing them to do something they don't want to.



People should ASK FIRST if they can watch a game. It's called common courtesy. It should not be automatically expected



With the game locked how can anyone be sure that what they say happened happened? I am not accusing them of cheating but if you can just lock a game during a tournament then what's to prevent cheating....our sense of honor? Yeah I don't trust that at all.


If no one watched the game at all with an unlocked room, how would you know?
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