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Daala squads = Broken??? Options
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:57:09 AM
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thereisnotry wrote:
adamb0nd wrote:
Just curious. Whatever the errata may be, what are the odds of a re-release of the card after something is set in stone in a later release? A lot of these changes seems like they'd drastically effect the piece (wording of ability, character cost, etc). Would be nice to get an updated card once the fig is fixed... assuming its cost effectively possible.
I'm not the person in charge of this, but I think this will be no problem at all. Especially if we're going to be making significant and multiple changes to how abilities work. It's one thing to make it Fringe only. Another to make it non-unique. Another to change the distance (double-speed or speed)...all those things together get far too complex for a simple workaround on an existing card. I think that if we go the errata route, it is pretty much a necessity that we at least provide a pdf. Many of us sleeve our cards, and so it's not inconceivable to just print the new version on some basic paper and place that version in, on top of the original card.


That's what I would do. Is there no room for a promo card in Vset8? I would think re-printing an errata card would be a natural choice.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:01:26 AM
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No, not really room in set 8 as spots are already tight with the smaller set size.

As far as printing one up just by itself, it could be a possibility, depending on what is actually done.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:12:32 AM
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urbanjedi wrote:
No, not really room in set 8 as spots are already tight with the smaller set size.

As far as printing one up just by itself, it could be a possibility, depending on what is actually done.


I'm fine with just printing out and putting it in the sleeve in front of the original card. Printing is what I do with my orphans anyway.
billiv15
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:47:29 AM
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Theory crafting is fun. Thinking of the greatest abuse is fun. Actually doing it on a regular basis without counter attacks however is entirely another thing. Errata should be done much more conservatively because the card is already out. The time for major changes ended when the PTing ended, even if the PTing wasn't enough. Simple solutions are better. But ultimately sitting down, playing games and demonstrating the problems is the best evidence.
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:50:03 AM
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Part of the issue is that the printer needs to print in multiples of 18 (that is, 18 cards to a sheet, which then gets cut up into the cards that we receive in the mail). We've already got all the slots filled for V-Set 8, so if we were going to go the route of professionally-printed errata cards, we'd have to drop some new cards from Set 9. And what if we end up needing to errata all 3 of the cards under discussion?

I think that by far the simplest solution is to produce a new card(s) in pdf format and have people print them up for themselves. Or maybe one of us who is going to Gencon could print sheets of them on good cardstock and distribute them at Gencon that way. I know I have access to a good color printer, so I could make that happen if there was demand for it.
Deaths_Baine
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 1:08:50 PM
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billiv15 wrote:
Theory crafting is fun. Thinking of the greatest abuse is fun. Actually doing it on a regular basis without counter attacks however is entirely another thing. Errata should be done much more conservatively because the card is already out. The time for major changes ended when the PTing ended, even if the PTing wasn't enough. Simple solutions are better. But ultimately sitting down, playing games and demonstrating the problems is the best evidence.




Bill just do us all a favor and...... PLEASE COME BACK TO DESIGNING!! I am pretty sure you had a huge part in the cantina brawl subset and it is like the most fun, most useful, most balanced set we have in the game. whoever else had a hand in that subset, you deserve this praise as well!
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 1:15:38 PM
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billiv15 wrote:
Theory crafting is fun. Thinking of the greatest abuse is fun. Actually doing it on a regular basis without counter attacks however is entirely another thing. Errata should be done much more conservatively because the card is already out. The time for major changes ended when the PTing ended, even if the PTing wasn't enough. Simple solutions are better. But ultimately sitting down, playing games and demonstrating the problems is the best evidence.


Completely agree. I hadn't thought about the fact that Daala might be broken until New Zealand reports came out. But all my games have been pretty easy, and if I were to cross the table to face Daala I only see a very few viable options. And I'm not sure those options even have the upper hand based on the NZ reports. (Although if the opposite side would use Zygerrian and the LIN too, that might even things up.) More data is needed.

In the meantime, I'll continue the brainstorming so that more ideas are out there in case something does need to be done. Another option: give Daala Rival.

Rival (This character may not be in a squad with non-Imperial characters.)

This knocks out the Zygerrian, mice, Czerka, ugnaughts, R7s, LIN, Buzz Droid. It might knock it out of Tier 1 status. Might not. Bothan Saboteurs and Security Officer Stormtroopers provide door control. All of the other commander boosts are still available, but activations go down some due to having to go with more expensive door control. On the other hand, activations might stay the same since you'd probably just get more troopers instead of the LIN. No Czerka means the snowtroopers are maxing out at 40 or 50dmg instead of 70 or 90dmg per activation. No access to the great strafe counters or the uber-deep strike with Zygerrians, so it might knock the squad down to earth by allowing the Lancer/Yobuck to have a definite advantage (and maybe even an auto-win). That last issue may knock it out of Tier 1 status. (Although Disra's bribery would allow a Buzz droid to come in as an Imperial.)
Darth O
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:08:50 PM
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Tint and I just had a game on Cantina. He ran Snowtroopers with one Zygerrian and Pellaeon, while I ran this:

--High Defensinition--
55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi
40 Luminara Unduli, Jedi Master
35 Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Master
30 Barriss Offee, Jedi Knight
27 Lobot
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(199pts. 7 activations)

I brought in a Twi'lek Bodyguard and Figrin D'an with Lobot. Most of Tint's rolls were rubbish - he missed his first two shots against my bodyguard. Luminara had 32 defense in cover, but the Snowtroopers had +20 attack. All 14 of them. And while GOWK had MotF 3 from Qui-Gon, Pellaeon denied him his rerolls. I killed 5 troopers before losing my last piece.

+20 for 50, 14 times a round. I'm just gonna leave this here.
DarthRattlehead
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:13:16 PM
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holy crap....
sounds broken to me :)

i'm trying to come up with a squad for hamilcon next weekend. knowing there will be daala.. argh!
thereisnotry
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:20:40 PM
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Darth O wrote:
Tint and I just had a game on Cantina. He ran Snowtroopers with one Zygerrian and Pellaeon, while I ran this:

--High Defensinition--
55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi
40 Luminara Unduli, Jedi Master
35 Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Master
30 Barriss Offee, Jedi Knight
27 Lobot
9 R2-D2, Astromech Droid
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(199pts. 7 activations)

I brought in a Twi'lek Bodyguard and Figrin D'an with Lobot. Most of Tint's rolls were rubbish - he missed his first two shots against my bodyguard. Luminara had 32 defense in cover, but the Snowtroopers had +20 attack. All 14 of them. And while GOWK had MotF 3 from Qui-Gon, Pellaeon denied him his rerolls. I killed 5 troopers before losing my last piece.

+20 for 50, 14 times a round. I'm just gonna leave this here.
Yep, this is true. Darth O played his squad well too; he used the BG and Figrin with good placement to protect R2 (who was my main target if possible). But there was just nothing he could do once he was out-activated and outmaneuvered (charging fire). What was interesting to me was that, while the Zygerrian was certainly helpful, it wasn't absolutely necessary--at least not in this matchup. That's because I didn't need to do any deepstrikes. I dropped QuiGon first, followed by Figrin, the BG, R2, and the Lobot/Ug fodder. That left Barriss, Lumi, and GOWK, whom Pelleon pretty much neutered. I took down Barriss (31 Def) despite having absolutely atrocious rolls for the entire end of a round; but she eventually did succumb. Then Lumi died to troopers who based her and GOWK made only a few SSM saves before dropping.

So yeah, high-Defense jedi with Soresu and SSM...they just can't hack it vs Daala. They'd probably do ok vs Raxus Troopers (at +13) but it wasn't too hard to get my squad bonuses so that my Canadians (Snowtroopers) were shooting at +20 most of the time.



However, I've just discovered a potential counter; the Sarlaac on Rancor Pit! lol You'd need to win the map roll, and then somehow you'd have to have some way of keeping the Sarlaac alive while all the troopers pummeled it at the end of the round. Ok, nevermind...that'll never work either, then. But it would be cool, since it could keep the troopers from moving to the other side of the board.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:22:34 PM
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Darth O,

You might have beaten the Raxus Primes. They are the ones who max out at 13 attack or 17 with Needa's reroll. But it still would have been tough against fifteen of them who all have major mobility.
FlyingArrow
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 9:30:52 PM
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thereisnotry wrote:

What was interesting to me was that, while the Zygerrian was certainly helpful, it wasn't absolutely necessary--at least not in this matchup. That's because I didn't need to do any deepstrikes.


This has been my experience as well. Extra mobility from the Zygerrians is nice but Charging Fire is sufficient when the firepower is ten to twenty troopers at forty to ninety damage depending on how you tune it.
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 10:07:48 PM
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Do you guys think if it was just regular charging (not +10) that it would have made a difference?
Darth O
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:19:54 PM
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urbanjedi wrote:
Do you guys think if it was just regular charging (not +10) that it would have made a difference?


With at least 12 troopers doing at least 30 damage without the extra 10, I'm not sure most squads would find it any easier. I would almost say that Charging Fire itself is the issue, but it would be drastic to remove it. As FlyingArrow has shown, we would need more than one fix.
kezzamachine
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:43:27 PM
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Charging Assault? That's the melee one, right?
urbanjedi
Posted: Friday, February 14, 2014 11:44:39 PM
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just trying to see if it is possible to pinpoint the actual problem.

How about a squad of snow troopers without Daala, but with Thrawn instead (5pts ea instead of 4 I know), but u don't have to spend the points for Piett now.
theultrastar
Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:10:47 AM
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Played a game against DieAndBeMetal tonight on Vassal, he ran YoBuck against Daala. Many of you have played Christian at tournaments and know he's a solid player. He won map roll, and he picked Theed as his map. This is the squad I ran...

Daala 27
Piett 20
Gary 16
Flim 15
Ozzel 11
Needa 11
Mas 8
R7 8
x2 Slaver 16
x 15 Raxus Prime
x2 Uggie


I had right side of the map, he had left. First round he left R2 attached to Gen Sky, and Yobuck attached to Foul. I stuffed all of my troopers behind doors and then jammed the doors with 40hp pieces so Yoda couldn't get my Raxus troopers. I did a deep strike in the first round and took out R2.

At this point we're talking about the game, I tell him that I'm pretty confident I've won, and tell him there is no way I'm going to give him the Gallop. I'm going to keep all of my guys behind my door jams, wait him out, deep strike him to death. Christian agrees. We play it out. He goes for the Gallop, it's horrible. He kills one Raxus trooper. After he has activated all of his pieces, I unload, I kill Yobuck, Foul, and Gen Sky all in the same round. I had troopers to attack his other pieces with as well, but at this point, he was 100 percent sick of Daala and her antics, and quit the game.

So yeah game was over in 2nd round, I knew I was going to win after I got R2 in the first. And it was a NPE on both ends.
TheHutts
Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:11:24 AM
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I think without some kind of speed boost, Troopers would sink back to being pretty lame - they could probably take rock/tank squads ok but that would be about it - Charging Assault is an interesting idea though and would give them their own distinct flavour (you can run 12, but only if you get adjacent to something). The extra damage on Charging Fire +10 feels like icing currently, and would help if it was dropped, but it wouldn't solve everything singlehandedly IMO. Playing against Cad Bane last week, the Charging Fire +10 meant that I only needed two hits instead of three with my deep(ish) strikers.

I do think that damage and movement are both problems - and they probably both need addressing in some respect.
urbanjedi
Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:15:39 AM
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Thrawn/Mas/Chief Chirpa/Ewok Cheiftan/Jabba CL. If you add Lobot and Ozzel you are at a very slim 128 pts. Add 20 ewoks/3 ugos/1 mouse to get to 200 plus lobot. 31 acts with Ozzel PLUS lobot should let you outactivate anything out there.

Ewoks all charge for 13/30 (just like Raxus assuming Daala were to lose the +10 damage). They are melee instead of shooty, but the addition of init control plus swap should make up for it I Think plus the fact that you get more of them. Thought maybe you could surprise someone with it. And I am sure there is room to max it out.

EmporerDragon
Posted: Saturday, February 15, 2014 12:55:45 AM
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Just a thought, how would it affect things if Prideful instead granted a CE with the effect rather than just giving a straight buff?
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